My Assessment Of The Situation At The Maxwell Institute

[Calm]

For anyone interested:

http://www.johnadamscenter.com/2012/06/did-john-dehlin-bring-down-the-mormon-studies-review-hint-the-answer-has-two-letters/

Interesting note: I hadn't known before that Mr. Dehlin gets paid for what he does.

http://www.templestu...ise-fall-farms/

Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

Ah, but can you label them with the right logical fallacy?

Probably if I looked. I'm sure there is one about declaring something to be true and then stopping there but I consider that one so self-evident I don't bother with a formal label. Perhaps someone who isn't as tired or more schooled in formal logic can step in.

[Cobalt-70]

Well, at that point it would not really be equilibrium. It would be out of balance and apostate.

So I assume you would consider the Nicene Creed to be an equilibrium point within early Christianity.

[Libs]

For anyone interested:

http://www.johnadams...as-two-letters/

Interesting note: I hadn't known before that Mr. Dehlin gets paid for what he does.

http://www.templestu...ise-fall-farms/

Thanks for the links, Cal. That first one was especially interesting. I have seen the second one.

Is Ralph Hancock a part of MI?

[why me]

That's because we are taught what to think, we are not taught how to think. There is a vast chasm of difference between the two approaches. Critical thinking skills have been the fundamental greatest weakness in church teachings about the Gospel. We are never taught how to use them, but we are taught what to believe, and with all our hearts, and go with testimony everytime contradictory evidence shows up.

Sounds like the teachings of Paul unless of course, you see critical thinking skills being taught in the new testament. However, the church encourages all to get a good education and stresses education as a tool for life advancement. I would hope that some questioning skills are taught in school.

Maybe you should become a sunday school teacher and teach critical thinking as part of each weekly lesson. I think that the book of mormon can be great for a questioning process.

[mfbukowski]

Actually, the mission of BYU is essentially the same thing -- and BYU -- the whole school -- is an extension of the Church Education System.

I am really beginning to wonder if BYU should exist at all. That may sound shocking to some, but the reality is that BYU was founded when there were no institutions of higher learning in Utah and it served a definite function.

Now there are many institutes of higher learning, and the overlap between what the subject matter teaches and those other institutions teach is so substantial that it makes me wonder why we are using tithing funds to pay teachers to teach undergraduate courses which anyone could get at any community college

Outside of Utah, church members obviously do just that. Why should we waste tithing funds teaching "secular" understanding to kids when they can get that anywhere?

What they need are courses to prepare them for dealing with that secular knowledge, or better yet, teaching our doctrine, which is that there is no difference between secular knowledge and religious knowledge once you have the correct philosophy of religion to understand that.

Those courses could be taught in seminary or institute.

I see no function that BYU serves other than to introduce members of the opposite sex to one another.

Edit: I just started another thread on this topic.

Edited June 26, 2012 by mfbukowski

[wenglund]

This mainstreaming process has been going on since 1890.

The so-called "mainstreaming process" is a myth contrived through bad scholarship. It is fitting, then, that you would espouse it, particularly since it is an issue that is off-topic to this thread.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[David T]

Three insightful and thoughtful blog posts on this:

On Loving Both FARMS and the Maxwell Institute, by Joseph Spencer @ BCC

Are Book Reviews Scholarship? Explosive Tensions Within the Mormon Studies Review by Ben Huff @ T&S

The Legacy of FARMS by TT @ FPR

[Scott Lloyd]

For anyone interested:

http://www.johnadams...as-two-letters/

Interesting note: I hadn't known before that Mr. Dehlin gets paid for what he does.

http://www.templestu...ise-fall-farms/

There was a thread here a couple of days ago linking to John's podcast about what Mormon Stories does and why. Much of the podcast is a solicitation for donations. It reminded me of a PBS pledge drive, in fact.

I have no knowledge regarding if or how much of the proceeds from the donations go to paying some sort of salary to John.

[David T]

There was a thread here a couple of days ago linking to John's podcast about what Mormon Stories does and why. Much of the podcast is a solicitation for donations. It reminded me of a PBS pledge drive, in fact.

I have no knowledge regarding if or how much of the proceeds from the donations go to paying some sort of salary to John.

http://openstoriesfoundation.org/finances/

[Scott Lloyd]

http://openstoriesfo...n.org/finances/

Wow. Thanks for the information.

[William Schryver]

There was a thread here a couple of days ago linking to John's podcast about what Mormon Stories does and why. Much of the podcast is a solicitation for donations. It reminded me of a PBS pledge drive, in fact.

I have no knowledge regarding if or how much of the proceeds from the donations go to paying some sort of salary to John.

About $40,000 in (iirc) 2011.

[Calm]

About $40,000 in (iirc) 2011.

In 2011 John Dehlin received $37,473.32 in gross salary as Executive Director of the foundation. $20,000 of that was owed to John for the previous year’s salary (2010) which was deferred by John until a board of directors was established. John also receives no benefits from the foundation, so his total net salary after insurance for 2011 was $12,541.

For 2012 John Dehlin’s salary has been set by the board of directors at $40,000.

from the previous link

"after insurance"? What insurance? it looks like it would have been almost $5000.

Since payroll expenses were "37,473.32" it would appear that Dehlin is the one and only "employee".

Would be nice. FAIR people generally pay their own way when they give talks, etc.

Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[William Schryver]

from the previous link

"after insurance"?

Thanks, cal. So $40,000 this year, not including insurance benefits. Not Bill Gates, by any means, but not too shabby.

[David T]

Thanks, cal. So $40,000 this year, not including insurance benefits. Not Bill Gates, by any means, but not too shabby.

Or rather, $40,000 gross, with no additional insurance benefits, as I see it saying. The phrasing of your comment sounded like he takes in 40k + benefits. That doesn't appear to be the case. Cost of insurance is deducted from the 40k it sounds like. I could be wrong. That's what the language seems to express, however.

Edited June 26, 2012 by David T

[Senator]

Thanks, cal. So $40,000 this year, not including insurance benefits. Not Bill Gates, by any means, but not too shabby.

For all intents and purposes, Dehlin appears to be establishing his own ministry.

[Calm]

For all intents and purposes, Dehlin appears to be establishing his own ministry.

That was the word that came to my mind.

[Scott Lloyd]

Or rather, $40,000 gross, with no additional insurance benefits, as I see it saying. The phrasing of your comment sounded like he takes in 40k + benefits. That doesn't appear to be the case. Cost of insurance is deducted from the 40k it sounds like. I could be wrong. That's what the language seems to express, however.

How much time does it take to

Produce a podcast? Could be a fairly comfortable income for a part-time gig. Especially if he has another job with insurance benefits.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

How much time does it take to

Produce a podcast? Could be a fairly comfortable income for a part-time gig.

All expenses paid as well, even a cell phone. With the detail given, it looks like there are no out of pocket expenses for Dehlin... Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[William Schryver]

Or rather, $40,000 gross, with no additional insurance benefits, as I see it saying. The phrasing of your comment sounded like he takes in 40k + benefits. That doesn't appear to be the case. Cost of insurance is deducted from the 40k it sounds like. I could be wrong. That's what the language seems to express, however.

You could be right. I've now read two different descriptions of the nature of his salary, neither of which is entirely clear. I am content to let it be $40,000, including benefits.

[Bernard Gui]

It's about time we all just shut down yBu . . . nothing good ever came from that place except for the individuals who made FARMS and FAIR what they became.

Everything the administration there does turns things petrid and gooey.

Want an adopted alma mater whose studentbody's % of Mormon attendance is exceeded only slightly by yBu?

Become an Aggie.

University administrators are a miserable lot . . . and yBu's have tended, from St. Ernest forward, more miserable than most and much more highly priggish and obnoxious.

Eschew the cougar.

He only bites you in the butt.

Higher education politics are the reason I got out of teaching at the college level.

Bernard

[David T]

How much time does it take to

Produce a podcast? Could be a fairly comfortable income for a part-time gig. Especially if he has another job with insurance benefits.

Does he currently have another job? Does he have a job that gives him benefits? Again, the way it was phrased made it look like he paid for insurance independently. I'm curious if this is his full source of income.

[ERayR]

Higher education politics are the reason I got out of teaching at the college level.

Bernard

If you want to teach at the college level move out to the boonies where some college has an outreach program and teach there. The problem is that is usually just part-time.

[Calm]

Does he currently have another job? Does he have a job that gives him benefits? Again, the way it was phrased made it look like he paid for insurance independently. I'm curious if this is his full source of income.

Isn't he a grad student?

I think most grad students would enjoy having this salary plus expenses for a part time gig.

It looked to me like he was paid $17,000 ($20,000 from $37,000) and then they talked about "no benefits" and "after insurance" being around $12,000 net pay which makes no sense if he used the difference of $5000 to pay for his personal insurance...how is that not a benefit or if not a benefit part of his salary?

The only other thing I can think of is maybe that insurance is liability insurance in case someone sues him but I would think that would have come out of the Foundations expenses to cover everyone involved, not just him?

Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[Bernard Gui]

If you want to teach at the college level move out to the boonies where some college has an outreach program and teach there. The problem is that is usually just part-time.

That's exactly what I have done...part time at a 2 year community college.

It's fun watching the politics among the full-timers, but not having to be

involved.

Bernard