28 replies to this topic

[ltwin]

Hey guys. Not sure if this forum is used for introductions or not. Anyway, I'm new to the forums here. I'm a lifelong Pentecostal Christian. In the fall I'll be going to graduate school at the College of Charleston to study history! I'm so excited. Anyway, I love to study religions. Roman Catholicism and Momonism are two religions that interest me. I guess because compared to Pentecostalism, they seem to be highly organized, but at the same time they seem to be more readily accepting of supernatural phenomenon than your generic evangelical Protestant Christian. So, anyway . . .

[thesometimesaint]

Itwin:

Welcome to the Glass Menagerie. We are more organized than the typical Protestant church, but unlike the Catholic we have a lay ministry.

[boblloyd91]

Itwin, glad to have you. If you have any questions about Mormonism you'll get quite a variety of opinions and viewpoints from this forum. I hope we can get to know you better and have some good discussions!

[ltwin]

Yeah you guys seem very organized. Pentecostals have denominations, but we don't really have extravagant organizations and ministers and congregations really covet their independence.

I study Pentecostal history and theology a lot. Vinson Synan, a Pentecostal historian, classifies Mormons along with Quakers and Shakers as "Pre-Pentecostals". He writes how many large scale revivals in 18th century America were accompanied by bodily jerking and "slaying in the Spirit" including early Mormonism. He writes that,

"Shouting, jerking, and dancing were common in their services, and Brigham Young not only spoke in unknown tongues, but interpreted his own messages to his hearers. Mormon choirs were even known to sing songs in unknown tongues in unison" (The Holiness-Pentecostal Tradition: Charismatic Movements in the Twentieth Century, p. 14).

He cites a book by Joseph Smith, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, published in 1902 in Salt Lake City. Anyone know anything about this book?

Also, I'm really interesting in Mormon beliefs about the ordinance of confirmation and baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. If you know anything about Pentecostalism, you will know we believe in an experience of empowerment known as baptism with the Holy Spirit that is separate from and subsequent to conversion. I'm curious about this sentence in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism's article on the BFHG (p. 97),

"The baptism of fire inaugurates the transmission of spiritual gifts to the faithful to assist throughout life in remaining true to their baptismal covenant (1 Cor. 12; Moro. 10:8-23; D&C 46:10-33)."

What does this mean to Mormons?

[lebwest]

Welcome! I'm new too

[Garden Girl]

Welcome itwin and lebwest...

Itwin gave us a little idea of who he is... how about you lebwest... i.e., whatever you feel comfortable briefly sharing such as general location, young/old, gender... interests...

I think you'll enjoy it here... a variety of posters, mostly LDS of course... I'm faithful LDS, old as the hills, widowed... and share my life with a pushy cat named Bob in a cottage-by-the-sea on the beautiful central Oregon coast.  Though retired there never seems to be enough hours in the day... I draw and paint, garden, read, beachcomb, etc etc.

This board can be quite lively at times, depending on the topic... but most of our critics are good people and we consider them friends... and of course the mods keep things from getting out of hand.  You may want to read the board guidelines if you haven't already...

Again, welcome... will look forward to your posts.

GG

[calmoriah]

ltwin, on 19 June 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

He cites a book by Joseph Smith, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, published in 1902 in Salt Lake City. Anyone know anything about this book?

http://en.wikipedia....h_(Joseph_Smith)

http://ia700505.us.a...tionPdf/hoc.pdf

Wish he put the volume numbers on his citation, I cannot locate the section he is citing which are said to be 296-7, 409, 422.

The only reference I can find to "shaking" is condemning of it.

Looks like it is volume 1.  So far I can only find the first citation which is about speaking in tongues.

Edited by calmoriah, 19 June 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[kolipoki09]

ltwin, on 19 June 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Yeah you guys seem very organized. Pentecostals have denominations, but we don't really have extravagant organizations and ministers and congregations really covet their independence.

I study Pentecostal history and theology a lot. Vinson Synan, a Pentecostal historian, classifies Mormons along with Quakers and Shakers as "Pre-Pentecostals". He writes how many large scale revivals in 18th century America were accompanied by bodily jerking and "slaying in the Spirit" including early Mormonism. He writes that,

"Shouting, jerking, and dancing were common in their services, and Brigham Young not only spoke in unknown tongues, but interpreted his own messages to his hearers. Mormon choirs were even known to sing songs in unknown tongues in unison" (The Holiness-Pentecostal Tradition: Charismatic Movements in the Twentieth Century, p. 14).

He cites a book by Joseph Smith, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, published in 1902 in Salt Lake City. Anyone know anything about this book?

Also, I'm really interesting in Mormon beliefs about the ordinance of confirmation and baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. If you know anything about Pentecostalism, you will know we believe in an experience of empowerment known as baptism with the Holy Spirit that is separate from and subsequent to conversion. I'm curious about this sentence in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism's article on the BFHG (p. 97),

"The baptism of fire inaugurates the transmission of spiritual gifts to the faithful to assist throughout life in remaining true to their baptismal covenant (1 Cor. 12; Moro. 10:8-23; D&C 46:10-33)."

What does this mean to Mormons?

We believe in the gift of tongues, which most Mormons interpret as meaning being able to quickly learn a foreign language. Closely tied to it is the gift of the interpretation of tongues.

A good place to start learning about LDS perspectives on spiritual gifts is here:


The Spiritual Gifts of Healing, Tongues, Prophecy, and Discerning of Spirits



I served as a Mormon missionary in north Texas from 2006 to 2008. I visited several Pentecostal/Holiness churches while I was there. Very nice people . . . and some excellent cooks as well!

Welcome aboard.

[ltwin]

calmoriah, on 19 June 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....h_(Joseph_Smith)

http://ia700505.us.a...tionPdf/hoc.pdf

Thanks.

calmoriah, on 19 June 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Wish he put the volume numbers on his citation, I cannot locate the section he is citing which are said to be 296-7, 409, 422.

The only reference I can find to "shaking" is condemning of it.

His citation has pp. 296-97, 409, 422. No volume number.

[ltwin]

kolipoki09, on 19 June 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

We believe in the gift of tongues, which most Mormons interpret as meaning being able to quickly learn a foreign language. Closely tied to it is the gift of the interpretation of tongues.

When Pentecostalism began in 1901, Charles Parham taught that speaking in tongues was foreign languages, which would revolutionize missions by allowing Christians to bypass learning foreign languages. Pentecostals quickly realized however that most speaking in tongues was not xenoglossia (unlearned foreign languages) but glossolalia, which Pentecostals understand to be heavenly or angelic tongues. While we still believe in xenoglossia and there are stories about missionaries miraculously being able to speak in unlearned foreign languages, Pentecostals do expect to have to learn foreign languages for missionary work today lol.

kolipoki09, on 19 June 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

A good place to start learning about LDS perspectives on spiritual gifts is here:


The Spiritual Gifts of Healing, Tongues, Prophecy, and Discerning of Spirits



I served as a Mormon missionary in north Texas from 2006 to 2008. I visited several Pentecostal/Holiness churches while I was there. Very nice people . . . and some excellent cooks as well!

Welcome aboard.

Thanks for the link!

[ltwin]

kolipoki09, on 19 June 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

I served as a Mormon missionary in north Texas from 2006 to 2008. I visited several Pentecostal/Holiness churches while I was there. Very nice people . . . and some excellent cooks as well!

Welcome aboard.

They didn't act suspicious at all? I only ask because Mormonism is highly suspect among Pentecostalism, but I'm glad you were treated well! We do love to eat.

[kolipoki09]

ltwin, on 19 June 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

They didn't act suspicious at all? I only ask because Mormonism is highly suspect among Pentecostalism, but I'm glad you were treated well! We do love to eat.

They might have been a little wary of us coming around, but for the most part (especially in predominately black congregations) it was as warm a greeting as I've ever received.

The only time I felt uncomfortable was at a UPC congregation in Fort Worth. The enthusiasm to manifest literally every aspect of Acts 2 was a little over the top for my tastes, and I mean that with no disrespect.

[ltwin]

kolipoki09, on 19 June 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

They might have been a little wary of us coming around, but for the most part (especially in predominately black congregations) it was as warm a greeting as I've ever received.

Cool.

kolipoki09, on 19 June 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

The only time I felt uncomfortable was at a UPC congregation in Fort Worth. The enthusiasm to manifest literally every aspect of Acts 2 was a little over the top for my tastes, and I mean that with no disrespect.

UPC . . . ugh. Trust me, if you think you can't stand Oneness Pentecostals then you have no idea how Trinitarian Pentecostals feel about our Oneness cousins. It's a very strained relationship at best.

[calmoriah]

ltwin, on 19 June 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Thanks.

[url="http://ia700505.us.archive.org/6/items/HistoryOfTheChurchhcVolumes1-7original1902EditionPdf/hoc.pdf"]

His citation has pp. 296-97, 409, 422. No volume number.

So a friend of mine found these citations for me and they all deal with the gift of tongues.  Now I am very curious as to why he thought shouting and jerking and dancing were common to worship services.  I did find one reference to a recreational dance time afterwards turned into a worship service, but this did not sound like a common event nor was the dancing having to do with the worship.

[calmoriah]

ltwin, on 19 June 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

you have no idea how Trinitarian Pentecostals feel about our Oneness cousins. It's a very strained relationship at best.

What is the history between the relationship?  Which came first, etc?

[Tacenda]

I'm a new poster also.  I've been Mormon my entire life.  Also, live in Utah. But really want to venture and see what others believe.  I didn't serve a mission, and always attended my church.  I'm very jealous of those that served missions and were able to visit other churches.  I know nothing is stopping me but I'm still hesitant to just drop in.  So it will be nice to hear of your faith walk.  I recently watched "Joyful Noise" with Queen Latifa and Dolly Parton, that movie made me long for singing in church like they do.  Do you have choirs like that?  We also had a Southern Baptist choir visit around Christmas time in our church for a few years during Christmas holidays, and I felt the spirit especially when singing along with them "Go Tell it on the Mountain that Jesus Christ was Born".  I loved the enthusiasm and spirit of singing for the Lord that way.  Maybe I'm a Southern Baptist at heart.

[ltwin]

calmoriah, on 20 June 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

So a friend of mine found these citations for me and they all deal with the gift of tongues.  Now I am very curious as to why he thought shouting and jerking and dancing were common to worship services.  I did find one reference to a recreational dance time afterwards turned into a worship service, but this did not sound like a common event nor was the dancing having to do with the worship.

I'm not sure. I'm curious as well since I know Synan is a well known and respected historian of Pentecostal history. There had to be something in the history for him to say it, and (no disrespect intended towards Mormons) it is not like there would be any advantage from the Pentecostal side to link its more distinctive motor phenomenon with the early LDS Church. Pentecostals know what it is to be accused of being a cult or heterodox and we certainly don't see any benefit in being linked to other suspect groups.

[ltwin]

calmoriah, on 20 June 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

What is the history between the relationship?  Which came first, etc?

Well, Pentecostalism can be traced back to the Roman Catholic Church via Anglicanism via Methodism via the Wesleyan Holiness Movement. Pentecostalism began to emerge as a distinct movement between 1901 and 1908 after the Holiness Movement rejected speaking in tongues. Pentecostalism at this time was solidly within creedal Christianity in the sense that a Pentecostal would have been able to affirm the historic creeds of the church, particularly as they relate to the Trinity.

It was only around 1914 that this changed for parts of the movement. At a large Pentecostal camp meeting, a man named Frank Ewart received a revelation that baptism should be performed in the name of Jesus Christ according to the formula in Acts since in him dwells the fullness of the Godhead. From there developed the doctrine of the Oneness of God. This was very attractive to many Pentecostals because it appealed their restorationist sentiments. However other Pentecostals spoke out against it saying that this was not a "new revelation" but was instead a very old heresy that was condemned by the early church. Ironically, Pentecostals who decry tradition looked to tradition to help make sense of this "New Issue" as it was called.

In 1916, the General Council of the Assemblies of God reversed its earlier refusal to create any kind of new creed or doctrinal statement and writes the Statement of Fundamental Truths which explicitly establishes it as a Trinitarian church. Therefore, nearly a quarter of its ministers and most of its Southern membership withdraws to form the predecessors of what is today the United Pentecostal Church, International. There are other Oneness churches but this is one of the largest and most prominent.

There are important differences besides the debate over the Godhead. Trinitarian or "mainstream Pentecostals" believe that the only "experience" essential to salvation is a conversion experience. The baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is not held by us to be essential to salvation. That is why we can say that a born again Southern Baptist who has never spoken in tongues has just as good a chance of getting into heaven as a tongue talking Pentecostal holy roller. For mainstream Pentecostals, Spirit baptism is about empowerment--not salvation. And speaking in tongues is simply a physical evidence of that empowerment.

For Oneness Pentecostals, not only does one need to have a conversion experience, but water baptism and Spirit baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues are essential to salvation. Therefore, to a Oneness Pentecostal, if you have not spoken in tongues than you have not be saved.

Today we don't have anything to do with each other. Trinitarian or Mainstream Pentecostals feel more at home among evangelical Protestants who reject the continuation of the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit than we do among Oneness Pentecostals. We think they are well meaning but misguided and heretical. They think we are heretical.

However, its important to point out that some Oneness Pentecostals like TD Jakes appeal to many Trinitarian Pentecostals. He is vague about what he actually believes concerning the Godhead, and he doesn't make a big deal about it. So many Pentecostals just overlook this and enjoy his great preaching.

[ltwin]

Tacenda, on 20 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm a new poster also.  I've been Mormon my entire life.  Also, live in Utah. But really want to venture and see what others believe.  I didn't serve a mission, and always attended my church.  I'm very jealous of those that served missions and were able to visit other churches.  I know nothing is stopping me but I'm still hesitant to just drop in.  So it will be nice to hear of your faith walk.

I suppose my faith walk is much the same as other evangelical Protestants, with the exception that I grew up with more consciousness of the supernatural and the church I went to was extremely emotional--running, dancing, praying in tongues, falling under the power of God, shouting.  I've seen a minister walk on top of the pews under the anointing.  

Tacenda, on 20 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

I recently watched "Joyful Noise" with Queen Latifa and Dolly Parton, that movie made me long for singing in church like they do.  Do you have choirs like that?  We also had a Southern Baptist choir visit around Christmas time in our church for a few years during Christmas holidays, and I felt the spirit especially when singing along with them "Go Tell it on the Mountain that Jesus Christ was Born".  I loved the enthusiasm and spirit of singing for the Lord that way.  Maybe I'm a Southern Baptist at heart.

I think in the past every Pentecostal church had a choir. Today, many churches have praise teams and choirs or only praise teams. My church used to have a choir but now we have a praise team of about 10 people counting both musicians and vocalists. In my opinion, Pentecostal singing should always be lively. If you want reserved worship then you should go elsewhere, but today many Pentecostal churches have become much more reserved than in the past.

We occasionally sing old songs like "Ain't No Grave Gonna Hold My Body Down" (which always results in a throwdown gangbuster service), "Amazing Grace", or "Have A Little Talk With Jesus". But the music we sing a lot now days is Hillsong, Chris Tomlin, and newer black gospel like Israel Houghton and Eddie James.

[ltwin]

Tacenda, on 20 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm a new poster also.  I've been Mormon my entire life.  Also, live in Utah. But really want to venture and see what others believe.  I didn't serve a mission, and always attended my church.  I'm very jealous of those that served missions and were able to visit other churches.  I know nothing is stopping me but I'm still hesitant to just drop in.  So it will be nice to hear of your faith walk.  I recently watched "Joyful Noise" with Queen Latifa and Dolly Parton, that movie made me long for singing in church like they do.  Do you have choirs like that?  We also had a Southern Baptist choir visit around Christmas time in our church for a few years during Christmas holidays, and I felt the spirit especially when singing along with them "Go Tell it on the Mountain that Jesus Christ was Born".  I loved the enthusiasm and spirit of singing for the Lord that way.  Maybe I'm a Southern Baptist at heart.

I also wanted to say that you will find that Pentecostal music has had a big influence on contemporary styles. Dolly Parton was raised in a Pentecostal family (not sure what her religious beliefs are now). Elvis Presley's family was Pentecostal.