103 replies to this topic

[why me]

If I remember correctly, it had been mentioned by someone on this forum that the lds church does not mention the urim and thummin for the translation process. This is not true. In the june 2012 Liahona page 55 the urim and thummin is mentioned for the translation process.


Gift and Power of God

Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon “through the mercy of God, by the power of God” (D&C 1:29) and “by the means which were before prepared” (D&C 20:8), including the Urim and Thummim.

http://www.lds.org/l...s-1353?lang=eng

I see no hiding of the process.

[cinepro]

If they are saying that the Book of Mormon that we have today was translated by the Urim and Thummim, then they are hiding the translation process.

And apparently quite well.

Edited by cinepro, 19 June 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[Brant Gardner]

cinepro, on 19 June 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

If they are saying that the Book of Mormon that we have today was translated by the Urim and Thummim, then they are hiding the translation process.

I know what you intend, but don't you think that is a bit disingenuous? The term "urim and thummim" was used generically for the interpreters and the seer stones, so it was (for them) the same as saying it was done with a seer stone. In fact, for those who knew how seer stones were used, it was probably sufficiently descriptive to be pretty precise. Of course, we have lost that context, but by the time the context was lost the tradition was pretty firm.

[Anteojito]

I thought it was just the lost 116 pages the were translated with the use of the U&T. For the rest of the BOM Joseph Smith used the seer stones. Since the lost pages are not part of the BOM then saying the the BOM was translated using the U&T is not quite true.

[DBMormon]

I agree with Brant.  The term Urim and Thummim can and has been used to describe the seer stone.  My only problem is this.  This generation doesn't see it that way, so knowing that when the church uses Urim and Thummim and they use it to mean seer stone that members think they are implicitly implying the spectacles found with the plates, it may be a good time to start saying seer stone in the wording and briefly explaining where he got it and how he used both.

also when the quote says

Quote

including the Urim and Thummim.

this in it's context implies that other items were used in the translation and the urim and thummim or spectacles if you assume that is only part of the equation.   AKA there were several instraments used in the translation, including the urim and thummim

Also do we have definitive proof the spectacles were not used for any of the current Book of Mormon as we have it.  or is that just assumption?

[Anteojito]

That might be a bad assumption on my part. I thought that after they lost the 116 pages Moroni took back the plates and the U&T. When he gave him back the plates he did not get the U&T and so Joesph use the seer stones. I need to double check that.

I see your point that U&T may have been a genaric term for both, but I don't think people see it that way now.

Additionaly, I think the church still does not like to portray Joesph using either. If you go to the church's Joseph Smith web site  http://www.josephsmi...&vgnextfmt=tab3

All the depictions show him translating without the aid of anything

[DBMormon]

Quote

Additionaly, I think the church still does not like to portray Joesph using either. If you go to the church's Joseph Smith web site  http://www.josephsmi...&vgnextfmt=tab3

Part of that is every statement we have is second hand and many of them contradict each other.  Joseph's only response.... when asked to explain the translation in detail for the world to know.... he says it is not for the world to know the particulars and suffice it to be said it was translated by the gift and power of God.  

So perhaps the church is honoring Joseph's comment by not giving all the particulars.  who knows

[Brant Gardner]

The instruments delivered to Joseph with the plates were called interpreters. Joseph used the interpreters for the 116 pages and a seer stone after that. I think I remember 1833 when the label urim and thummim was borrowed from the Bible and applied to the instruments used in the translation. Eventually Joseph also called them that.

We see urim and thummim in the D&C because it was edited in to some of the earlier revelations. Think of it as something similar to Levi's or Kleenex used a generics for bluejeans and tissues. They had a very different original meaning that has been adopted into a generic usage (much to those companies' chagrin).

[Anteojito]

Brant Gardner, on 19 June 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

The instruments delivered to Joseph with the plates were called interpreters. Joseph used the interpreters for the 116 pages and a seer stone after that. I think I remember 1833 when the label urim and thummim was borrowed from the Bible and applied to the instruments used in the translation. Eventually Joseph also called them that.

We see urim and thummim in the D&C because it was edited in to some of the earlier revelations. Think of it as something similar to Levi's or Kleenex used a generics for bluejeans and tissues. They had a very different original meaning that has been adopted into a generic usage (much to those companies' chagrin).

Good point. I never had too much of a problem with the whole interpreters vs. seer stones issue once I learned about the.  Though, I was pretty embarrassed when it was a non-member friend who told me about the seer stones in the hat. I did not know about it at the time.  To me if you believe that an angel appeared to Joseph Smith and led him to gold plates then the method of translating isn’t really an issue. I think it is the head in a hat that people find embarrassing.

[blackstrap]

Were there not others that claimed revelations through the use of a seer stone? IIRC this caused some contention to arise,in addition to some hanky and panky.

[cinepro]

Brant Gardner, on 19 June 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I know what you intend, but don't you think that is a bit disingenuous? The term "urim and thummim" was used generically for the interpreters and the seer stones, so it was (for them) the same as saying it was done with a seer stone. In fact, for those who knew how seer stones were used, it was probably sufficiently descriptive to be pretty precise. Of course, we have lost that context, but by the time the context was lost the tradition was pretty firm.

If that were the case, why does Why Me (and the Church in general) refer to it as the Urim and Thummim and not a Urim and Thummim?

It's possible it's a sincere and proper use of the term, but it's also possible that the Church (since its earliest days) has known that people are much more tolerant of the idea of Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon using an ancient biblical device compared with a stone that was found while digging a well.

But I suppose a "two Urim and Thummim" theory is not the least sensical theory put forth in defense of the Church, so for that much we can be grateful.

Edited by cinepro, 19 June 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[Ron Beron]

Brant Gardner, on 19 June 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

The instruments delivered to Joseph with the plates were called interpreters. Joseph used the interpreters for the 116 pages and a seer stone after that. I think I remember 1833 when the label urim and thummim was borrowed from the Bible and applied to the instruments used in the translation. Eventually Joseph also called them that.

We see urim and thummim in the D&C because it was edited in to some of the earlier revelations. Think of it as something similar to Levi's or Kleenex used a generics for bluejeans and tissues. They had a very different original meaning that has been adopted into a generic usage (much to those companies' chagrin).

The interpreter's in question seem a lot like the glasses used in National Treasure which were invented by B. Franklin to ascertain secret codes on the back of the Declaration of Independence.  While it is not completely understood, the original U and T were more than likely two stones used for casting lots and divination.  So again, we come back to the stone idea.

Quote

"The Urim and Thummim were two small objects used in the casting of lots to discern the will of God (see Num 27:21; 1 Sam 14:41 in the LXX and Ezra 2:63 and 1 Sam 28:6; J. E. Hartley, Leviticus [WBC], 111-12). See the extensive discussion in J. Milgrom, Leviticus (AB), 1:507-11."

  The NET Bible

[why me]

Anteojito, on 19 June 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

I think it is the head in a hat that people find embarrassing.

But it shouldn't be embarrassing at all. In fact, it should be faith promoting. Good advice for anyone would be: stick your head in a hat and attempt to write a book of over 500 pages while your head is in the hat and see how you do.

I think that the person would find it very impressive to follow that advice.

Edited by why me, 20 June 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[why me]

The link states that "Joseph Smith translated the book of mormon "through the mercy of god, by the power of god" D&C 1: 29) and "by the means which were before prepared ( D&C 20: ), including the Urim and Thummin.

Someone reading this sentence in the Ensign or Liahona should understand that the process was complicated. And typical questions would be: What exactly does the power of god mean? and What were the means which were before prepared? and What else was included in the translation process?

These should be the common questions asked when reading such a sentence.

Edited by why me, 19 June 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[cinepro]

why me, on 19 June 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

But it shouldn't be embarrassing at all. In fact, it should be faith promoting. Good advice for anyone would be: stick your head in a hat and attempt to write a book of over 500 pages while your head is in the hat and see how you do.

I think that the person would find it very impressive to follow that advice.

For the record, I didn't say that.

But for the record, I don't think it's a good idea to gauge the likelihood of something having happened on whether or not you could personally duplicate the feat.  Certainly the accomplishments of humankind are not limited to what we can personally do.

And even if I could find 10 other people who could bury their faces in hats and dictate 500 page books in a scriptural language comparable in complexity and eloquence to the Book of Mormon (and pass a wordprint test indicating multiple authors to boot), that wouldn't change the possibility of Joseph Smith having done it.  If Joseph Smith did it of his own power, it wouldn't matter if two other people could do it, or a thousand.  All that would matter is whether or not he could (or did).

Edited by cinepro, 19 June 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[Cobalt-70]

Anteojito, on 19 June 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

That might be a bad assumption on my part. I thought that after they lost the 116 pages Moroni took back the plates and the U&T. When he gave him back the plates he did not get the U&T and so Joesph use the seer stones. I need to double check that.

People close to Smith did use the term "Urim and Thummim" to describe Smith's seer stone, and apparently Smith did as well. Emma and others claimed that Smith used the Book of Mormon interpreters for the Book of Lehi, but by all accounts, he only used his brown, egg-shaped seer stone to translate the existing Book of Mormon. That he used Interpreters for any of the missing 116 pages is not certain, however, because apparently Smith did not show the Interpreters to anybody except, apparently, his mother. Martin Harris, who was the scribe during the translation of the 116 pages, said that Smith used his seer stone for at least some of this translation, because Harris once tried to switch Smith's stone with another one to secretly test the stone's magical powers. In any event, if Smith ever used something that looked like the Interpreters during that early lost translation, he would have put them in the bottom of his hat just like he did his seer stone. This is what Martin Harris apparently told Charles Anthon, explaining that the spectacles were made for a giant and could not be worn.

[why me]

So, is the church hiding the translation process when such a quotation from the ensign/liahona is considered?

Edited by why me, 20 June 2012 - 06:12 AM.

[why me]

cinepro, on 19 June 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

And even if I could find 10 other people who could bury their faces in hats and dictate 500 page books in a scriptural language comparable in complexity and eloquence to the Book of Mormon (and pass a wordprint test indicating multiple authors to boot), that wouldn't change the possibility of Joseph Smith having done it.  I

This is true. However, when one considers the feat itself, that if it were a fraud, and how he could have done it, I would admire the guy even more. But here is the point: Why would he need to do it? Why would he need a book of mormon? He could have founded a new church, resembling a protestant sect and got quite a following. And if he did have such  a gift as being able to write a book while his head was in a hat, think what kind of author he could have been. He missed his true calling: a good writer.

That being said, he seemed to hate the idea of writing anything. Thus, someone else kept his journals, we have very little in his own hand when it came to the talks that he gave (we do have notes from trusted members of the audience). So, it seems that the book of mormon would have been a one off thing if he wrote it since it wasn't in his character to write much else.

[Deborah]

Why did this bring to mind this scripture from 2 Nehpi 27:32 "And they that make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of naught."

[CV75]

why me, on 19 June 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

I see no hiding of the process.

When I see these threads about what the big, bad Church has done, I remember how much I’ve learned from Helaman 16:14-23 Indeed, the Book of Mormon was written for our day (and any other!)!

  20 But behold, we know that this is a wicked tradition, which has been handed down unto us by our fathers, to cause us that we should believe in some great and marvelous thing …therefore they can keep us in ignorance, for we cannot witness with our own eyes that they are true.
  21 And they will, by the cunning and the mysterious arts of the evil one, work some great mystery which we cannot understand, which will keep us down to be servants to their words, and also servants unto them, for we depend upon them to teach us the word; and thus will they keep us in ignorance if we will yield ourselves unto them, all the days of our lives.
  22 And many more things did the people imagine up in their hearts …for Satan did stir them up to do iniquity continually; yea, he did go about spreading rumors and contentions …that he might harden the hearts of the people against that which was good…
  23 And notwithstanding the signs and the wonders which were wrought among the people of the Lord, and the many miracles which they did, Satan did get great hold upon the hearts of the people…