138 replies to this topic

[DBMormon]

Freedom - you mention amway... lol  which now goes by the name quixtar.  When they did their presentation, I joined.  You know why.  To me the way they presented it was just how the missionaries presented the gospel minus the religious overtones

[mbh26]

Quote

That is odd, I taught the very same class in Elder's Quorum and the subject of "infallibility" did not come into the conversation!

So much for seeking the truth.

[The Nehor]

Freedom, on 11 June 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

I have prayed about it and I feel inspired to council you to join Amway. I can sponsor you.

I feel inspired to accuse you of priestcraft for using your testimony like this and I denounce you.

[The Nehor]

reelmormon, on 11 June 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

Freedom - you mention amway... lol  which now goes by the name quixtar.  When they did their presentation, I joined.  You know why.  To me the way they presented it was just how the missionaries presented the gospel minus the religious overtones

Fear anyone who bears testimony of anything that will get them personal gain. A rule of thumb I developed for myself.

[ERayR]

reelmormon, on 11 June 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Brigham thought Adam was God.... you don't... you win he lost

Brigham thought men lived on the sun and Joseph thought they lived on the moon... you don..... you win they lose

President Kimball thought Indians that had the gospel were getting lighter in skin and he said he could even see it happening.... you don't... you win they lose.

"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as AngIos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. - Pres kimball

Prophets are wrong enough to give you room to do what you feel is best if and when the spirit directs so.  To rebel simply because you don't want to follow or you would rather do your own things then you will be accountable

Perhaps you need to spend some more time researching these brethren and these topics.  You don't seem to have more than a superficial knowledge of them.

[CASteinman]

ERayR, on 11 June 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Perhaps you need to spend some more time researching these brethren and these topics.  You don't seem to have more than a superficial knowledge of them.

Absolutely.  I was trying to figure out what to say to that and you said it for me.

[sunstoned]

ERayR, on 11 June 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Perhaps you need to spend some more time researching these brethren and these topics.  You don't seem to have more than a superficial knowledge of them.

I know this was directed to reelmormon, but to me these are good examples of prophets being wrong.  Any yes, I have studied each topic.  This is only a sampling. There are many other examples that can be had.  So what?  The brethren are the first to claim that they are just men, and that they are fallible.  

What I find interesting is that many members, some on this board, seem to give lip service to the idea that our leaders are not infallible, but when presented with example of this, they bristle up and get all defensive.

[Log]

I'm curious: has anyone ever substantiated that those individuals to whom President Kimball referred to did not, in fact, acquire lighter skin?  No?  Didn't think so.  So what basis do you have for asserting he was wrong?

[sunstoned]

Log, on 11 June 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

I'm curious: has anyone ever substantiated that those individuals to whom President Kimball referred to did not, in fact, acquire lighter skin?  No?  Didn't think so.  So what basis do you have for asserting he was wrong?

What was I thinking. You are right.  BYU should do a scientific study on changes in skin tones of Native Americans who join the LDS church.  After all, he was a prophet speaking in General Conference, so could not of been wrong.

[Log]

sunstoned, on 11 June 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

What was I thinking. You are right.  BYU should do a scientific study on changes in skin tones of Native Americans who join the LDS church.  After all, he was a prophet speaking in General Conference, so could not of been wrong.

Is that an admission that you don't, in fact, know what you're talking about - and that you have no evidentiary basis for asserting President Kimball was wrong?

Edited by Log, 11 June 2012 - 10:10 PM.

[Storm Rider]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 11 June 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

But if your inspiration of the Spirit contradicts the prophets inspiration of the Spirit, it is clearly understood that your inspiration is wrong, and you need to keep praying/studying until it matches that of the prophet.

Doesn't that, in essence, make the prophet infallible? or am I missing something?

That is not my understanding of guidance of the Holy Spirit and personal responsibility.  When the Spirit speaks, listen and obey.  When the prophet speaks, listen and pray.  If I don't receive a confirmation of his action/proposal/statement, then I don't follow.  During my mission an elder came to the mission office and due to family issues he felt he needed to return home.  I had occaision to meet with him prior to the him meeting with the mission president.  I felt a real calmness and peace that this elder was needed at time and it was appropriate.  He spoke with the MP, but he said he felt that it was wrong for him to go home.  He sent the elder back to his city and asked him to pray about it some more.  A week passed, the elder returned with a renewed conviction that he was needed at home.  After talking with the elder the MP then said he agreed and that he felt led to allow him to return.

Unless the prophet is speaking personally to me; giving a direction, etc., then I will always follow the Spirit.  However, if he speaks to me, I will follow and the error will be on his head.

[sunstoned]

Log, on 11 June 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Is that an admission that you don't, in fact, know what you're talking about - and that you have no evidentiary basis for asserting President Kimball was wrong?

You would rather hang on to a silly, dated, and what could be taken as a racist statement than to admit that a Prophet is fallible?

Edited by sunstoned, 11 June 2012 - 10:16 PM.

[Log]

sunstoned, on 11 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

You would rather hang on to a silly, dated, and what could be taken as a racist statement than to admit that a Prophet is fallible?

I'll take that as a resounding "YES" in response to my question.  Unless you care to produce your evidentiary basis that President Kimball was wrong.  Consider this a formal CFR.

[sunstoned]

Log, on 11 June 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

I'll take that as a resounding "YES" in response to my question.  Unless you care to produce your evidentiary basis that President Kimball was wrong.  Consider this a formal CFR.

You want a CFR on if Native Americans are turning white when they join the church?  How old are you?

[Log]

sunstoned, on 11 June 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

You want a CFR on if Native Americans are turning white when they join the church?  How old are you?

I want a CFR on the specific statement attributed to President Kimball in this post being factually false.

Get to it.  Libelling me doesn't count as a reference.

Edited by Log, 11 June 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[mfbukowski]

cinepro, on 11 June 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

And FWIW, "Prophetic Fallibility" could appropriately be discussed in the context of this discussion question for the lesson:

Sure if you really wanted to force it in there, there's always a way to make something as controversial as possible.  Good job.

[mfbukowski]

3DOP, on 11 June 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

This doesn't sound any different than what Catholics teach about the pope. Most popes never speak infallibly. Infallibility is a conditional charism. Of course Joseph Smith the Man is fallible. The more important question might not be about whether there are times when the prophets are fallible, but whether there is any time when they might be infallible. Could Joseph Smith the Prophet propose error?

(I don't have any bone to pick either way. I am mainly using this to show that papal infallibility is very rare and perhaps more like your view than you might have realized.)

3DOP

Actually it is very similar.

[CASteinman]

I don't understand why anyone would say that the prophets are "infallible" when the word "perfect" is available and more easily understood.

[zelder]

Log, on 11 June 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

I'm curious: has anyone ever substantiated that those individuals to whom President Kimball referred to did not, in fact, acquire lighter skin?  No?  Didn't think so.  So what basis do you have for asserting he was wrong?

This is comedy but it's also embarrassing.  "White and delightsome" in the Book of Mormon was changed to "pure and delightsome".  The idea that laminates change and become white comes from a mistake in the printing of the Book of Mormon.  Unfortunately the mistake created an embarrassing Mormon cultural idea about changing skin color.  Nobody teaches this anymore.  It was a mistake.

http://en.fairmormon...anged_to_"pure"

[zelder]

Storm Rider, on 11 June 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Unless the prophet is speaking personally to me; giving a direction, etc., then I will always follow the Spirit.  However, if he speaks to me, I will follow and the error will be on his head.

I'm not sure what people mean when they say it's on his head.  I'm afraid you will still suffer the consequences of error.