319 replies to this topic

[Evangeline]

Kerry A. Shirts, on 23 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

It was on my Facebook page.....several months ago so it's going to be in the much older posts........ I was discussing the authorship of the Gospels, and several LDS attacked my claiming I was in apostacy, disagreeing with the Leaders, and lambasting me for being so closed minded as to even READ anyone other than LDS leaders on the scriptures, who are the ONLY people on the earth who really KNOW what the Bible is all about,. It's right on the public open page for any and all to read and see. I actually gave up trying after several posts. You simply cannot discuss anything intelligently with people who refuse to intelligently discuss the scholarship.

It seems that the fundamentalists are the ones who fall the worst when their rigid views can no longer be supported.

[SamIam]

Kerry A. Shirts, on 23 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

It was on my Facebook page.....several months ago so it's going to be in the much older posts........ I was discussing the authorship of the Gospels, and several LDS attacked my claiming I was in apostacy, disagreeing with the Leaders, and lambasting me for being so closed minded as to even READ anyone other than LDS leaders on the scriptures, who are the ONLY people on the earth who really KNOW what the Bible is all about,. It's right on the public open page for any and all to read and see. I actually gave up trying after several posts. You simply cannot discuss anything intelligently with people who refuse to intelligently discuss the scholarship.

Evangeline, on 23 June 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

It seems that the fundamentalists are the ones who fall the worst when their rigid views can no longer be supported.

I have determined that the man behind the curtain must indeed be the true wizard of Oz - Kerry Shirts, as well for the most part I have determined to follow the council he gave when Toto revealed the place of his concealment and he came into full view of Dorothy and the rest of the troop- He said and I quote, "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

Nonetheless, until the rest have determined that the wizard is not what he claims once in a while a little commentary will be forth coming.

In each of our personal growths in the Gospel we have stages which can be exampled by the various stages of our lives.  In the beginning we are but children subject to be carried about and not very firm in our foundation.  We rely heavily on the testimonies of others.

Then we seem to grow into the teenager mode.  Head strong, we are never wrong and no one can tell us what to do.  We aren't really all that studied and half the time don't even have a clue what we really are talking about but we're tough and we're mad and we're not to be messed with.

Next we get into the early adult mid adult place, where time has changed us a little because we have come to realize we don't know as much as we thought, we have begun to ask questions and we need answers NOW.  We are still a little too bold for our own good but they are trying to hold on to that stance of I'm in charge here and I can handle all comers.  The paradox exists though because way in the back of our head is the growing sense that we don't know it all, and we are nervous because our roots are being challenged.  These perhaps are some of the ones that you are describing who go all to pieces when they get challenged. They fear the attack on a set of values that they want to hold on too but they are not sure how to do so.

This group tends to split along three lines:

1.) Those that leave because they are too scared or unable to carry on the fight to defend something that turns out isn't as big a deal as they thought or they simply cannot deal with the state of not knowing according to their own rules and simply abandon a long tired battle in a war they are losing.

2.) Those that go into over drive into Scholarly excess that become their own source of wisdom and knowledge and retain the 17 year old "take on all comers" and "don't you dare think you can teach me anything." attitude. These hide behind the curtain of their own brilliance and intellect always hoping no one will see the MAN pushing all of the buttons and generating the smoke screens and changing mirrors that respond to the control panel they manage behind the curtain

3.) Then the third group -  the struggle progressively calms.  They have come through the trials of all of the stages before and they have realized that the only true solution is to take the spirit as their guide, be quiet when they should , speak when required, and humbly follow the Lord and his chosen leaders.

Of course their are sub-grades between as we are all growing and transitioning through the grades.

The challenge is that of the final three states, when you are stuck in any but the last group you see everybody as flying to pieces as anybody who disagrees.

Especially those in groups number one and two. Stuck in a universe of their own making they cannot conceive that some have actually walked in the same circles of which the center point is self, and have actually gotten beyond their superior all knowing selves until they realized they need to make Christ the center of their lives.

These who become group three are fewer in number than the other groups. However, these simply disagree with you because they know where you are stuck and they know you are still immature and they hope to help you through it.

Edited by SamIam, 23 June 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[Evangeline]

SamIam, on 23 June 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I have determined that the man behind the curtain must indeed be the true wizard of Oz - Kerry Shirts, as well for the most part I have determined to follow the council he gave when Toto revealed the place of his concealment and he came into full view of Dorothy and the rest of the troop- He said and I quote, "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

Nonetheless, until the rest have determined that the wizard is not what he claims once in a while a little commentary will be forth coming.

In each of our personal growths in the Gospel we have stages which can be exampled by the various stages of our lives.  In the beginning we are but children subject to be carried about and not very firm in our foundation.  We rely heavily on the testimonies of others.

Then we seem to grow into the teenager mode.  Head strong, we are never wrong and no one can tell us what to do.  We aren't really all that studied and half the time don't even have a clue what we really are talking about but we're tough and we're mad and we're not to be messed with.

Next we get into the early adult mid adult place, where time has changed us a little because we have come to realize we don't know as much as we thought, we have begun to ask questions and we need answers NOW.  We are still a little too bold for our own good but they are trying to hold on to that stance of I'm in charge here and I can handle all comers.  The paradox exists though because way in the back of our head is the growing sense that we don't know it all, and we are nervous because our roots are being challenged.  These perhaps are some of the ones that you are describing who go all to pieces when they get challenged. They fear the attack on a set of values that they want to hold on too but they are not sure how to do so.

This group tends to split along three lines:

1.) Those that leave because they are too scared or unable to carry on the fight to defend something that turns out isn't as big a deal as they thought or they simply cannot deal with the state of not knowing according to their own rules and simply abandon a long tired battle in a war they are losing.

2.) Those that go into over drive into Scholarly excess that become their own source of wisdom and knowledge and retain the 17 year old "take on all comers" and "don't you dare think you can teach me anything." attitude. These hide behind the curtain of their own brilliance and intellect always hoping no one will see the MAN pushing all of the buttons and generating the smoke screens and changing mirrors that respond to the control panel they manage behind the curtain

3.) Then the third group -  the struggle progressively calms.  They have come through the trials of all of the stages before and they have realized that the only true solution is to take the spirit as their guide, be quiet when they should , speak when required, and humbly follow the Lord and his chosen leaders.

Of course their are sub-grades between as we are all growing and transitioning through the grades.

The challenge is that of the final three states, when you are stuck in any but the last group you see everybody as flying to pieces as anybody who disagrees.

Especially those in groups number one and two. Stuck in a universe of their own making they cannot conceive that some have actually walked in the same circles of which the center point is self, and have actually gotten beyond their superior all knowing selves until they realized they need to make Christ the center of their lives.

These who become group three are fewer in number than the other groups. However, these simply disagree with you because they know where you are stuck and they know you are still immature and they hope to help you through it.

I take it you're in group #3?

[SamIam]

Evangeline, on 23 June 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

I take it you're in group #3?

One can never see where they've never been
But this I hope you’ll note
There are some hoping to cast a beam
where its true there is a mote

Evangeline take no slight
I only know this for certain
That it is never safe to find yourself
With a man behind a curtain.

Edited by SamIam, 23 June 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

It's never safe to align yourself with ANY man except God.........

[Evangeline]

SamIam, on 23 June 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

One can never see where they've never been
But this I hope you’ll note
There are some hoping to cast a beam
where its true there is a mote

Evangeline take no slight
I only know this for certain
That it is never safe to find yourself
With a man behind a curtain.

Samiam, I really appreciate your concern, but you don't need to worry about me.

[Valentinus]

Aliwe, on 23 June 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Matthew presents Jesus as King, hence the pedigree and the incident with Herod and the chain of fulfilled Messianic prophesies. Mark presents Jesus as the suffering Servant, hence it is largely concerned with the last week of his life.  Luke presents Jesus as Man, it is a very humanist gospel, in it Jesus shows concern for non-Jews, for lepers, Samaritans, gentiles, even for women.  John presents Jesus as God.

Okay. But what question did I ask that warranted these descriptions?

Matthew's audience: Messianic Jews
Mark: Roman Gentiles
Luke: The Underdogs
John: Women, Gnostics, Mystics, etc.

So what? The theologies are still different. The Synoptic Gospels are only synoptic because of their timeline similarities. To say that the authors had a cohesive and absolutely harmonious theology and message is illogical and presumptuous.

Edited by Valentinus, 23 June 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[Valentinus]

Evangeline, on 23 June 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

It seems that the fundamentalists are the ones who fall the worst when their rigid views can no longer be supported.

Fundamentalism and uber-conservativism are kinda like that crazy uncle with advanced Alzheimer's disease.

[calmoriah]

Valentinus, on 23 June 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Audience, speaker, context, etc. are the most essential keys to understanding the Gospels.

And what of actually applying the Gospels to our lives?

[Aliwe]

Valentinus, on 23 June 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Okay. But what question did I ask that warranted these descriptions?

You did not ask a question, you said "It is naive, uneducated or misguided to assume that the four gospels are harmonious in their theologies" and I was essentially supporting your thesis.

[Valentinus]

calmoriah, on 23 June 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

And what of actually applying the Gospels to our lives?

You take the 'good news' as advice to a joyful and fulfilling life. Personally, I would focus on the Red Letters Gospel more than anything else. When you consider the message being presented, also consider why Jesus is speaking, who he is speaking to and what is the historical context that has warranted the message. In these considerations, for me, Jesus' life and ministry become more lush and abundant.

[Valentinus]

Aliwe, on 23 June 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

You did not ask a question, you said "It is naive, uneducated or misguided to assume that the four gospels are harmonious in their theologies" and I was essentially supporting your thesis.

Fair enough. Thank you for clarifying.

[calmoriah]

Valentinus, on 23 June 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

You take the 'good news' as advice to a joyful and fulfilling life. Personally, I would focus on the Red Letters Gospel more than anything else. When you consider the message being presented, also consider why Jesus is speaking, who he is speaking to and what is the historical context that has warranted the message. In these considerations, for me, Jesus' life and ministry become more lush and abundant.

So no need for the Spirit?

[SamIam]

Evangeline, on 23 June 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Samiam, I really appreciate your concern, but you don't need to worry about me.

Don't I at least get a giggle for bad poetry.

Edited by SamIam, 23 June 2012 - 09:12 PM.

[Evangeline]

SamIam, on 23 June 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Don't I at least get a giggle for bad poetry.

Okay.  

Actually, I think you're pretty clever.

[selek1]

Kerry A. Shirts, on 23 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I was discussing the authorship of the Gospels, and several LDS attacked my claiming I was in apostacy, disagreeing with the Leaders, and lambasting me for being so closed minded as to even READ anyone other than LDS leaders on the scriptures, who are the ONLY people on the earth who really KNOW what the Bible is all about,. It's right on the public open page for any and all to read and see. I actually gave up trying after several posts. You simply cannot discuss anything intelligently with people who refuse to intelligently discuss the scholarship.

I am inclined to agree- but to extrapolate from the comparatively small (and self-selective) sample to the membership of the Church as a whole seems a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you agree?

[Valentinus]

calmoriah, on 23 June 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

So no need for the Spirit?

Perhaps our approaches with the Spirit are different. For me, the Spirit provides a practical, logical and reasoned approach to the Gospel and the Gospels. Burning bosom and witness reception and warm fuzzies are great if they work for the individual but that is not how the Spirit witnesses to me what I need to hear and understand. The Spirit doesn't witness to me based on ecclesiastical authority but by the content, context and reason found in the spirit of the message.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

selek1, on 23 June 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

I am inclined to agree- but to extrapolate from the comparatively small (and self-selective) sample to the membership of the Church as a whole seems a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you agree?

Not based on how I have tried before on messageboards to discuss the Bible from the scholars' points of evidences and analysis, no. There are very few Mormons who would even consider let alone investigate and ask the same questions and agree to the obvious conclusions once the evidence leads you to those conclusions that the scholars arrive at. We ALWAYS read our modern theology back onto the ancient times pretending that since WE believe this, then obviously ALL peoples in the scriptures no matter when or where they lived also believed our doctrines. This is what I call Mormonizing the scriptures...... I have several very powerful examples I can provide for you....... just don't get mad at me for showing you the evidence (or lack thereof) analysis and attempts at logically coming to a realistic conclusion based on that evidence, especially when it fundamentally disagrees with our own understanding.

[SamIam]

Kerry A. Shirts, on 23 June 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

I have several very powerful examples I can provide for you....... just don't get mad at me for showing you the evidence (or lack thereof) analysis and attempts at logically coming to a realistic conclusion based on that evidence, especially when it fundamentally disagrees with our own understanding.

Please.  I would like to see the evidences.

[selek1]

Kerry A. Shirts, on 23 June 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Not based on how I have tried before on messageboards to discuss the Bible from the scholars' points of evidences and analysis, no. There are very few Mormons who would even consider let alone investigate and ask the same questions and agree to the obvious conclusions once the evidence leads you to those conclusions that the scholars arrive at. We ALWAYS read our modern theology back onto the ancient times pretending that since WE believe this, then obviously ALL peoples in the scriptures no matter when or where they lived also believed our doctrines. This is what I call Mormonizing the scriptures...... I have several very powerful examples I can provide for you....... just don't get mad at me for showing you the evidence (or lack thereof) analysis and attempts at logically coming to a realistic conclusion based on that evidence, especially when it fundamentally disagrees with our own understanding.

I don't doubt this occurs.

I simply don't see evidence justifying generalizing the tendency to Mormons as a whole, nor (ironically) for limiting the phenomenon to Mormons in particular.

Every faith group- and many scholars- tend to imprint their own biases and presumptions on the material they are studying.  The myth of the truly objective scholar is just that- a myth.

As far as the average believer- LDS or otherwise- goes, I will agree that few will take the time or trouble to do thesis level research into the obscure corners of textual criticism and Biblical history- they are simply have neither the interest nor the time.

I will further concede that we have little patience for Gospel hobbyists who present their own opinions as foregone conclusion.

I am still not convinced, however, that the LDS people as a group are hostile to scriptural arguments that are logical, well-presented, and offer new insights into the truths of God's kingdom and Gospel.