42 replies to this topic

[jwhitlock]

One of the most inspiring and incredible things I've seen written on the subject of gay Latter-day Saint struggles.  He has some profound insights into not only his marriage relationship, but relationships in general.

Highly recommended as something very positive. Let me know what you think.


http://www.joshweed....out-of.html?m=1

[Storm Rider]

What an amazingly, emotional mature couple!  This should be required reading for all adults in the Church...or any church.

[cinepro]

I'm glad it's worked out for them so far.

Edited by cinepro, 10 June 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[DBMormon]

very inspiring, I think slowly we (the members of the church) are heading in a direction God would be happy with, that direction being our loving our neighbors as ourselves.  To truly appreciate every individual regardless of their looks, color, sexual orientation.  Not having to accept evil as good or good as evil but certainly not hating others because they are different.  We need to learn to love more.  I really appreciated this link.
Thank You

Edited by reelmormon, 10 June 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[CASteinman]

jwhitlock, on 10 June 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

One of the most inspiring and incredible things I've seen written on the subject of gay Latter-day Saint struggles.  He has some profound insights into not only his marriage relationship, but relationships in general.

Highly recommended as something very positive. Let me know what you think.


http://www.joshweed....out-of.html?m=1

Wow.  This brought tears to my eyes.

Edited by CASteinman, 10 June 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Verum]

I really loved his advice at the end on the importance of love and respect for LGBT individuals. While I think his specific circumstance of being happy and healthy in a heterosexual marriage is extremely rare, I am glad he has found he ideal path that works for him. My fear is that other gay or lesbian Mormons may read this and hold this as the standard of what LGBT Mormon's should ultimately strive for.

[Glenn101]

cinepro, on 10 June 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

I'm glad it's worked out for them so far.

If they continue to receive the type of support from family and church that they have received thus far, I think it will. I had a cyber friend once who had been in the same situation for nineteen years. I lost contact with him some time ago, but hope that he is still doing well.

Glenn

[Judd]

reelmormon, on 10 June 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

very inspiring, I think slowly we (the members of the church) are heading in a direction God would be happy with, that direction being our loving our neighbors as ourselves.  To truly appreciate every individual regardless of their looks, color, sexual orientation.  Not having to accept evil as good or good as evil but certainly not hating others because they are different.  We need to learn to love more.  I really appreciated this link.
Thank You

I would disagree that as a generality people are/were hated (within the church) for being different.

[calmoriah]

Quote

My fear is that other gay or lesbian Mormons may read this and hold this as the standard of what LGBT Mormon's should ultimately strive for.

Why does this cause fear in you?  (Just asking for your reasoning for this statement)

[Libs]

I have the same fear, Calmoriah, because generally speaking, this kind of relationship much more often fails than it succeeds.  The Weeds are not the only people who have tried this.  There are much more often sad stories of failure....and although I do sincerely wish this couple all the best, their relationship is still relatively young (from my perspective - I have been married over 40 years).

The fear is that many others will be encouraged to try this... and fail...which could affect the lives of not only the couples, but children in the wake, as well.

It's also very easy for people standing on the sidelines (like parents of gay kids) to point to this as an "easy" solution.  "See, they did it, so anyone can do it" kind of mentality.  False hopes and applying pressure, because this one couple is making a go of it (so far).

Edited by Libs, 10 June 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[Duncan]

I know two couples in this situation. One was divorced and remarried and has like 5 kids or something. The other married when he was in his 50's and they have a bunch of kids-I wish them and all married couples well!

[CASteinman]

calmoriah, on 10 June 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Why does this cause fear in you?  (Just asking for your reasoning for this statement)

I know that I do not really fear this.  I do not think it will have that much effect.

But I understand the fear:  It is that people will try to sort of "cure" their lives through marriage and then ruin a marriage, possibly with children.  


However, I think truly, that the reason this man and wife were able to have a good marriage is that they are both mature and they are both committed to the concepts of the Gospel -- in a disciplined way.  This means, to me, that it is an option open to people who have a similar maturity and discipline.  Which of course, might be rare.  

But wouldn't it be weird if men who were gay were able to have marriages like this and then those marriages turned out to be, on average, better than most?

[Verum]

calmoriah, on 10 June 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Why does this cause fear in you?  (Just asking for your reasoning for this statement)

I have some friends who were counseled to give this option a shot where homosexuals try to have more faith and live in a heterosexual marriage and have children... most ending in separation/divorce and heartache for all parties involved. These were mature, disciplined individuals faithful in the gospel (some still faithful but now living celibate). While I don't invalidate this person's particular choice, my fear is that some gay and lesbian Mormon's may use this as the ideal path, or in other words, the path that is most admired by members of the church or viewed as being the most faithful, ideal goal that gay Mormons should ultimately strive for.  Even some of the comments I have seen here on this board and on Facebook over this issue already confirm to me that this view is forming among many members--his situation must be successful because of his strong faith in the gospel or because of his rare "maturity and discipline". While I believe he does possess these characteristics,  the fact of the matter is that even the most disciplined, faithful latterday saints who are homosexual may not be able to navigate a successful, heterosexual marriage and family, and its not because they necessarily lack discipline or faith. Other paths should not be viewed on with pity, and they should certainly not be encouraged to get married when statistically that type of path not only leads to stress and heartbreak for the one with homosexuality , but also for his/her family.

Edited by Verum, 10 June 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[CASteinman]

Verum, on 10 June 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

the fact of the matter is that even the most disciplined, faithful latterday saints who are homosexual may not be able to navigate a successful, heterosexual marriage and family, and its not because they necessarily lack discipline or faith.

If it is not that they lack faith, maturity and discipline.. what is it?

[BlueDreams]

I enjoyed the blog post.

Libs, on 10 June 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

I have the same fear, Calmoriah, because generally speaking, this kind of relationship much more often fails than it succeeds.  The Weeds are not the only people who have tried this.  There are much more often sad stories of failure....and although I do sincerely wish this couple all the best, their relationship is still relatively young (from my perspective - I have been married over 40 years).

I don't know, I'm quite curious about how accurate that actually is. I've been reading a number of similar blogs and this is certainly among the peachier ones, but it's also made me wonder how many of these stories we actually get to hear. I have a personal feeling that we'd hear a disproportionate number of the failures than the successes for a number of reasons: 1.) the failures would probably be a prelude to a coming out story and would be discussed more openly. 2.) those who struggle with this and working at a straight marriage may be seeking for more privacy. Many may grow in more socially conservative atmospheres where issues dealing with sexuality aren't discussed openly. So the idea of being out and dealing with a litany of questions from both ends of the spectrum may be more than most would want to deal with.

That stated, all of the stories that I've read have made it pretty explicit that this isn't a fix all solution, so I wouldn't worry too much about touting his story as "Look, you can do it too" scenerio. Honestly the openness about these issues to me is exciting. Instead of polarities in experiences being described, there's a growing trend of stories from people that are extremely diverse. To me it helps dispell some of the myths of about what it means to be gay and mormon and gives a broadened view of what the future may entail. What I've seen or heard previously as options were quite limited: some vague referencing to a tricky life of celebacy, changing orientation,  etc (that are often described as unrealistic) or a life acting on ones sexuality (which, for LDS,  would have some major conflicts in themselves). I've personally enjoyed reading a larger spectrum of experiences within the LDS context. I think to fear any story is limiting to understanding human experiences and, in turn, understanding ourselves.


With luv,
BD

Edited by BlueDreams, 10 June 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[Libs]

BlueDreams, on 10 June 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

I enjoyed the blog post.



I don't know, I'm quite curious about how accurate that actually is. I've been reading a number of similar blogs and this is certainly among the peachier ones, but it's also made me wonder how many of these stories we actually get to hear. I have a personal feeling that we'd hear a disproportionate number of the failures than the successes for a number of reasons: 1.) the failures would probably be a prelude to a coming out story and would be discussed more openly. 2.) those who struggle with this and working at a straight marriage may be seeking for more privacy. Many may grow in more socially conservative atmospheres where issues dealing with sexuality aren't discussed openly. So the idea of being out and dealing with a litany of questions from both ends of the spectrum may be more than most would want to deal with.

That stated, all of the stories that I've read have made it pretty explicit that this isn't a fix all solution, so I wouldn't worry too much about touting his story as "Look, you can do it too" scenerio. Honestly the openness about these issues to me is exciting. Instead of polarities in experiences being described, there's a growing trend of stories from people that are extremely diverse. To me it helps dispell some of the myths of about what it means to be gay and mormon and gives a broadened view of what the future may entail. What I've seen or heard previously as options were quite limited: some vague referencing to a tricky life of celebacy, changing orientation,  etc (that are often described as unrealistic) or a life acting on ones sexuality (which, for LDS,  would have some major conflicts in themselves). I've personally enjoyed reading a larger spectrum of experiences within the LDS context. I think to fear any story is limiting to understanding human experiences and, in turn, understanding ourselves.


With luv,
BD

Perhaps, BD...it is difficult to know, for sure.   I don't know if studies have been done or not, but that's possible, I suppose.  I haven't looked into that.   As a confirmed hetero, I don't think I could be happy in a relationship with a woman, for the rest of my life.  I don't know many people who would admit to thinking they could be.  That's kind of how I judge these "mixed" relationships.  Not to say some don't work.  There are always exceptions to every rule.

I was glad to see the caveats (that this may not be for everyone), but I think those desperate for a solution, may tend to overlook those "warnings".

[Verum]

CASteinman, on 10 June 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

If it is not that they lack faith, maturity and discipline.. what is it?

They may not lack the faith, maturity, and discipline that God or any other reasonable personable would expect from a human being with that sort of trial. For example,  I could require that all of you eat nothing but apples for the rest of your life, and if you don't, I could blame it on your lack of faith, maturity and self-discipline.  What I am saying is, God will judge accordingly and while many people do lack maturity and self-discipline, its unreasonable to blame peoples shortcomings as the reason why they didn't live up to the way one particular person dealt with his/her trial, especially as it relates to something so complex such as sexual orientation.

[Verum]

BlueDreams, on 10 June 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

That stated, all of the stories that I've read have made it pretty explicit that this isn't a fix all solution, so I wouldn't worry too much about touting his story as "Look, you can do it too" scenerio. Honestly the openness about these issues to me is exciting. Instead of polarities in experiences being described, there's a growing trend of stories from people that are extremely diverse. To me it helps dispell some of the myths of about what it means to be gay and mormon and gives a broadened view of what the future may entail. What I've seen or heard previously as options were quite limited: some vague referencing to a tricky life of celebacy, changing orientation,  etc (that are often described as unrealistic) or a life acting on ones sexuality (which, for LDS,  would have some major conflicts in themselves). I've personally enjoyed reading a larger spectrum of experiences within the LDS context. I think to fear any story is limiting to understanding human experiences and, in turn, understanding ourselves.


With luv,
BD

BlueDreams, you bring an interesting perspective that I can appreciate.  I may be a little too paranoid about how people will perceive this, but you are right, focusing on the openness and diversity of theses types of experiences is a good thing.  Good point.

Edited by Verum, 10 June 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[BlueDreams]

Libs, on 10 June 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Perhaps, BD...it is difficult to know, for sure.   I don't know if studies have been done or not, but that's possible, I suppose.  I haven't looked into that.   As a confirmed hetero, I don't think I could be happy in a relationship with a woman, for the rest of my life.  I don't know many people who would admit to thinking they could be.  That's kind of how I judge these "mixed" relationships.  Not to say some don't work.  There are always exceptions to every rule.

I haven't looked into it either. I think I saw it referenced but it's kind of has some major set backs in recruitment for participation (I can't remember, but I think the one stat that I saw, which was pretty bleak, had the major set back of being self reporting, retrospective, and often from those that were already seeking therapy (it would be hard to find those who really prefer to remain aloof)...major problem in my book).
With mixed relationships it would be hard for me to imagine as well. What I do find interesting is that he mentions how much he very much wanted to marry with wife and kids and the whole bit. Which would also be a very different perspective than seeing it for myself. There's no social push for me to marry the same sex, so the only insentive for doing so would be purely based on sexual fulfillment...which there would be little of and I couldn't imagine it. For him it would entail far more aspects ranging from cultural to personal (a current strong loving relationship) to even spiritual fulfillment, since marriage plays such a central role in the LDS faith. So fulfillment would be multilateral as opposed to singular.

Quote

I was glad to see the caveats (that this may not be for everyone), but I think those desperate for a solution, may tend to overlook those "warnings".

Then there's not much anyone could do for them anyways. They'll continue to see only what they want to see. In the meantime, worrying about those who refuse to see otherwise, could mean losing out on learning from valuable personal experiences.

With luv,
BD

[CASteinman]

Verum, on 10 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

They may not lack the faith, maturity, and discipline that God or any other reasonable personable would expect from a human being with that sort of trial. For example,  I could require that all of you eat nothing but apples for the rest of your life, and if you don't, I could blame it on your lack of faith, maturity and self-discipline.  What I am saying is, God will judge accordingly and while many people do lack maturity and self-discipline, its unreasonable to blame peoples shortcomings as the reason why they didn't live up to the way one particular person dealt with his/her trial, especially as it relates to something so complex such as sexual orientation.

Shortcomings are the main reason that marriages fail.  Its hard to think of any other reason off the top of my head.  So why would that be off limits to claim as the reason?  

There are many varieties of shortcomings.  Homosexual lifestyle or irresistible same sex attraction is one of those varieties.  I think it is OK to recognize that as a shortcoming that may prohibit marriage for an individual.  But just as with many other shortcomings I also think it is appropriate to recognize that maturity, discipline and faith are the keys behind the "overcoming" spoken about in the scriptures, by which we become perfected.  It is the same maturity and discipline and faith that will also help overcome these shortcomings.  

Some people may have challenges for which they simply do not have a match of maturity, discipline and faith.  I know that in some areas, that is true for me.  Blinding oneself to this -- and worse -- denying the potential for overcoming -- is a form of damnation.

Edited by CASteinman, 10 June 2012 - 06:41 PM.