26 replies to this topic

[Hamilton Porter]

Given the explosion of academic books on LDS history, most of them fair, when you have friends investigating the Church, just tell them to stay away from the redneck bait on the internet (IRR, CARM, MRM, "here Billy Billy...") and stick to peer-reviewed sources.

[Storm Rider]

That is pretty good advice.  But, dang, all that wasted effort and money!  I just hate it when Satan can't get a return on his investment.

[Anijen]

Mike Ash Of Faith and Reason is good. Although Brant Gardner gave Voices from the Dust by David Calderwood kind of a bad review I enjoyed it. Then you can always go with great classics like A Marvelous Work and a Wonder and Jesus the Christ.

Just a few that I can think of, hope that helps.

[Hamilton Porter]

Jeff Holt, on 04 June 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Mike Ash Of Faith and Reason is good. Although Brant Gardner gave Voices from the Dust by David Calderwood kind of a bad review I enjoyed it. Then you can always go with great classics like A Marvelous Work and a Wonder and Jesus the Christ.

Just a few that I can think of, hope that helps.

I was thinking more along the lines of books from Oxford, Columbia, Harvard, and Knopf.

[cinepro]

Hamilton Porter, on 04 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Given the explosion of academic books on LDS history, most of them fair, when you have friends investigating the Church, just tell them to stay away from the redneck bait on the internet (IRR, CARM, MRM, "here Billy Billy...") and stick to peer-reviewed sources.

I've never heard that investigators should be directed towards scholarly works (no matter how good they are).  I had always understood the emphasis to be on the Scriptures and official Church publications.

Interesting

[Nominee]

Hamilton Porter, on 04 June 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

I was thinking more along the lines of books from Oxford, Columbia, Harvard, and Knopf.

Why?!?

[Rob Bowman]

Nelson,

You wrote:

Hamilton Porter, on 04 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Given the explosion of academic books on LDS history, most of them fair, when you have friends investigating the Church, just tell them to stay away from the redneck bait on the internet (IRR, CARM, MRM, "here Billy Billy...") and stick to peer-reviewed sources.

I guess we should also tell investigators to stay away from this forum, as well as from the "I'm a Mormon" propaganda at mormon.org (including your testimony).

[Storm Rider]

Rob Bowman, on 05 June 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Nelson,

You wrote:

I guess we should also tell investigators to stay away from this forum, as well as from the "I'm a Mormon" propaganda at mormon.org (including your testimony).

Show me another church, any church, website that allows such a broad range of critical threads.  They don't exist.  I would agree that nothing on the internet is of value when the objective is to come to know God.  Peter's example of learning by the Spirit continues to be the ideal for all individuals.  The Holy Spirit does seem to still be the source of all truth....unless you still would prefer to say the Bible is.

[Hamilton Porter]

Rob Bowman, on 05 June 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Nelson,

You wrote:



I guess we should also tell investigators to stay away from this forum, as well as from the "I'm a Mormon" propaganda at mormon.org (including your testimony).

Absolutely! If the investigator is a serious researcher I would not point him to Church propaganda. I'd inform him of the best sources on Joseph Smith [Rough Stone Rolling (Knopf), Joseph Smith Reappraisals after two Centuries (Oxford), Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Conquest of Death (Oxford)], on Brigham Young [Pioneer Prophet (Harvard)], and Parley P Pratt (Oxford), on doctrines [By the Hand of Mormon (Oxford), A History of Mormon Theology (Oxford, forthcoming)].

[cinepro]

Hamilton Porter, on 05 June 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Absolutely! If the investigator is a serious researcher I would not point him to Church propaganda. I'd inform him of the best sources on Joseph Smith [Rough Stone Rolling (Knopf), Joseph Smith Reappraisals after two Centuries (Oxford), Joseph Smith and Early Mormon Conquest of Death (Oxford)], on Brigham Young [Pioneer Prophet (Harvard)], and Parley P Pratt (Oxford), on doctrines [By the Hand of Mormon (Oxford), A History of Mormon Theology (Oxford, forthcoming)].

Considering how difficult it was to get my investigators to read 3 or 4 chapters from the Book of Mormon on their own, or attend three weeks of church in a row, I'm guessing the number of investigators who would drop $100+ on Oxford press is pretty small.

And with all due respect, those are great books, but they're hardly the kind that will give someone a "conversion experience" reading them.

Edited by cinepro, 05 June 2012 - 08:34 AM.

[Nominee]

cinepro, on 05 June 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Considering how difficult it was to get my investigators to read 3 or 4 chapters from the Book of Mormon on their own, or attend three weeks of church in a row, I'm guessing the number of investigators who would drop $100+ on Oxford press is pretty small.

And with all due respect, those are great books, but they're hardly the kind that will give someone a "conversion experience" reading them.

What he said.

[cinepro]

Not to mention that the investigator would quickly reach the point where they know more about Joseph Smith and Church history than the missionaries (who are limited to reading "True to the Faith" and "Our Heritage")

Edited by cinepro, 05 June 2012 - 09:36 AM.

[Anijen]

Rob Bowman, on 05 June 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Nelson,

You wrote:



I guess we should also tell investigators to stay away from this forum, as well as from the "I'm a Mormon" propaganda at mormon.org (including your testimony).

I would simply refer him/her to the humble missionaries and let the Holy Ghost do the teaching.

[Hamilton Porter]

Guys! I am talking about investigators who insist on researching on their own. I'm in now way suggesting that that we supplant Preach My Gospel, etc. If people are going to independently research the Church, we can tell them that the redneck bait on the internet is unreliable, and that there are objective, peer-reviewed source available.

[cinepro]

Hamilton Porter, on 05 June 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Guys! I am talking about investigators who insist on researching on their own. I'm in now way suggesting that that we supplant Preach My Gospel, etc. If people are going to independently research the Church, we can tell them that the redneck bait on the internet is unreliable, and that there are objective, peer-reviewed source available.

In that case, if someone is inclined to research via the internet, they are probably not going to want to spend the time and money to start a book collection.  It would be better to give them a list of reliable websites to counter any "redneck bait" they may encounter.

Edited by cinepro, 05 June 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[Hamilton Porter]

cinepro, on 05 June 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

In that case, if someone is inclined to research via the internet, they are probably not going to want to spend the time and money to start a book collection.  It would be better to give them a list of reliable websites to counter any "redneck bait" they may encounter.

What internet sources? If we tell them to only look at FAIR or MI, then they would think we are hiding something, and not allowing them to research both sides. Telling them to stick to peer-reviewed, academic sources is a good way to exclude anti-Mormonism from their research. If they are serious researchers, they will get the books one way or the other.

[Nominee]

I really think we, members of the LDS church, take too much credit for whether or not an individual investigator gets the right message from God. We are just the vehicle. It is by the Holy Spirit that the gospel is taught. Both the investigator and the Holy Spirit knows better than any of us what they need to be born to God. I'm not saying that this conversation is completely useless but ask that it be remembered that we all learn line by line. What you may have felt worked best for you is not ness. what is going to work at all for the next guy as we all come from difference places spiritually, learn in different ways, and at a different pace. Thankfully, our Heavenly Father knows each of us personally and has sent the Holy Spirit make sure that we receive what we need. Conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ is not reliant on a good missionary offering the right literature and avoiding the wrong stuff. Conversion is reliant on the heart of the investigator and his/her willingness to listen to the Spirit ~ not his/her willingness to ignore anti-mormon rhetoric.

[DBMormon]

Quote

Not to mention that the investigator would quickly reach the point where they know more about Joseph Smith and Church history than the missionaries (who are limited to reading "True to the Faith" and "Our Heritage")

That really sucks when investigstors tell missionaries Joseph translated by putting a stone in a hat and the elders say "no, he had a urim and thummim that came with the plates"  and then said investigator says "no, look right here Richard Bushman says so and has sources and Missionaries go "that book is false and written by the devil"  then it likely gets out of hand from there!

Yeah I would probably stay away form giving them more info then the missionaries have, it could get ugly.

Edited by reelmormon, 06 June 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[DBMormon]

ok all seriousness now.  If I had read Richard Bushman's rough stone rolling when I was 17,of the things that have bothered me since; very little of that would have.  Bushman lays it all out there and still leaves plenty of room for faith and for the divine.

Worse come to worse tell them about Bro. Marsh and the cream and strippings story.

Not sure why, but I am in a really saracastic mode today.... please forgive me

[Lightbearer]

Hamilton Porter, on 04 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Given the explosion of academic books on LDS history, most of them fair, when you have friends investigating the Church, just tell them to stay away from the redneck bait on the internet (IRR, CARM, MRM, "here Billy Billy...") and stick to peer-reviewed sources.

Actually I think that if I had a friend investigating the Church, I would tell them to read the Book of Mormon and the Joseph Smith History in the Pof GP and perhaps the D&C. It is not necessary to have a conversion to "History of the Church" or what some scholar has to say about the Mayan's and the Aztecs... or to have "both sides presented" to come to a correct conclusion. We had Anti-Mormon propaganda even before the internet was dreamed of and if someone is going to harden their hearts because of the lies of Satan and his immisaries, than they will just have to be decieved. You cannot stop it. Even if you could "control the situation" it is no good. Satan has a way of breaking through, the natural man will always be the enemy of God unless  he yield's to the Holy Ghost. I think God is more in control than we give Him credit for and He will lead those who are pure in heart to the truth. Whether if they think Joseph "peered into a hat" or if he wore a breast plate with two stones in silver bows, is not relevant, if it was by the gift and power of God that was what counts. We will never agree with Satan, he is forever our enemy so why play on his terms? God demands us to have faith and to listen to the voice of the spirit of the Lord, that is the key to conversion. Each person must have their own spiritual experience and we do not get that by relying on the arm of flesh or the wisdom of the world.