64 replies to this topic

[Bernard Gui]

http://www.arkansaso...pupil-20120531/

Quote

Emanuel, the board member, said the nation’s 6.1 million Mormons’ salvation is suspect, adding: “I don’t believe they’ll go to heaven.”

Comments?

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 31 May 2012 - 11:02 PM.

[Avatar4321]

“He drew a circle that shut me out Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout. But love and I had the wit to win We drew a circle that took him in” Charles Edwin Markham

[calmoriah]

Quote

“It’s very, very sneaky when people come in, especially in elementary and junior high grades where the kids are very influenced. It’s frightening how quickly things can get turned around,” she said. “They are called to do that, which is fine.

"Called to do" what?

[Storm Rider]

calmoriah, on 31 May 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

"Called to do" what?

That is the thing that stood out to me in the article.  This "Christian" accuses LDS of following the Great Commission to strenuously.  We may serve missions; we teach each other to testify of Christ; we teach each other to be a missionary; but to be "sneaky" about it?  I am sorry, but I just hate stupid people.  I don't feel pity for them and I wish that I could have a more patient love and charity for them.  What I feel is more akin to wanting to mash them; take them by their ears and show them how incredibly shallow and stupid they are.  Obviously, I am a very telestial sort of man and I admit it freely and often.

On the other hand, if a private school does not allow LDS, then please don't apply.  It appears that LDS were admitted in the past, but now these little people would like to be more proactive.  What is of import, is the call to start your own schools.  I have long felt that LDS should be even more active in private schools throughout the world.  Schools that are open to all, but will teach Christian principals.  I admire the Catholic Church for doing this.  Our children attended private schools through graduation; though they did not attend a Catholic school they were accepted at the high school level.  We ended up choosing a more secular, but more academically challenging school.

I learned while a teenager that Evangelicals were not to be trusted and are anything but Christian when it comes to me being a LDS.  There is not a week that goes by that I am not reminded that they remain a lost people full of hate, contention, dishonesty, and evil.  These are the type of people that if Jesus were to be on earth today would quickly crucify him for not fitting into the image of the God they have created.  Thank God that there is a separation between Church and State; were it not so these are the people who would be burning every LDS at the stake as a heretic.

I realize this is a strong opinion, but it has been learned by living amongst them and dealing with their constant, consistent examples of being anything but Christian.  If you disagree, I invite you to live among them for a few years.

[Log]

When I went to apply to be a teacher at a local Christian school, they had an interesting statement of faith they insisted all applicants sign.  It was similar in intent to this snippet copied off another school's application for faculty employment.

Quote

Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord?___________ When?________________
Church Affiliation____________________ Where? ___________________________ Member?_________
Are you willing to work harmoniously with members of other denominations? ________________________
Do you believe the Bible to be the only inspired and infallible Word of God, our final authority in all matters
of faith and conduct?

It's that last question that I perceive is self-contradictory coming from anyone who claims to have received Christ as their personal Savior and Lord.  Do "Christians" truly pray and never receive answers?  Because that, to me, is the direct implication of the position that the Bible is the sole Word of God, and the final authority in all matters of faith and conduct.

As to the OP: Arkansas is a lovely place.  Despite the fact that they slew an apostle back in the day, it has a lot of natural beauty to it.  The Saints are very friendly and the pace of life is much slower.

However, there are, compared to cosmopolitan CA, many obvious prejudices, and not just against Mormons.  There once was a city sign with a noose on it aimed at blacks in a community I dwelt in, for example.

But, anyways, there's nothing in the OP that surprises me - it's not just AR.  It's potentially any Protestant / Baptist school that would have similar rules against Mormons, and for the same reasons.

Strangely, Catholic schools seem more accepting.

Edited by Log, 01 June 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[selek1]

Storm Rider, on 31 May 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

That is the thing that stood out to me in the article.  This "Christian" accuses LDS of following the Great Commission too strenuously.  We may serve missions; we teach each other to testify of Christ; we teach each other to be a missionary; but to be "sneaky" about it?  I am sorry, but I just hate stupid people.  I don't feel pity for them and I wish that I could have a more patient love and charity for them.  What I feel is more akin to wanting to mash them; take them by their ears and show them how incredibly shallow and stupid they are.  Obviously, I am a very telestial sort of man and I admit it freely and often.

Join the club.  We have T-shirts and chocolates for fund raisers.

Quote

On the other hand, if a private school does not allow LDS, then please don't apply.  It appears that LDS were admitted in the past, but now these little people would like to be more proactive.

Emphasis on "little".  Small mindedm small-hearted.

Quote

I have long felt that LDS should be even more active in private schools throughout the world.  Schools that are open to all, but will teach Christian principals.  I admire the Catholic Church for doing this.  Our children attended private schools through graduation; though they did not attend a Catholic school they were accepted at the high school level.  We ended up choosing a more secular, but more academically challenging school.

I learned while a teenager that Evangelicals were not to be trusted and are anything but Christian when it comes to me being a LDS.  There is not a week that goes by that I am not reminded that they remain a lost people full of hate, contention, dishonesty, and evil.  These are the type of people that if Jesus were to be on earth today would quickly crucify him for not fitting into the image of the God they have created.  Thank God that there is a separation between Church and State; were it not so these are the people who would be burning every LDS at the stake as a heretic.

Save that I would be careful to differential between the Rob Bowman/Larry Craig school of Evangelicalism and the rest of "mainstream" Christianity, I agree.

Most of the Southern Baptists I grew up around were fundamentally indistinguishable from the Mormons with whom I now surround myself- earnest, good-hearted folks just trying to live the best lives they knew how.  Yes, there was an ill-defined disdain of the "other", but these folks were first in line with casseroles and a helping hand when there was a need.

And yes- there were (and are) most certainly wolves hiding in amongst the sheep.

While it is certainly necessary to hold fools, charlatans, and hypocrites up to public ridicule and scorn, it is also needful that we paint with an appropriately-sized brush.

Quote

I realize this is a strong opinion, but it has been learned by living amongst them and dealing with their constant, consistent examples of being anything but Christian.  If you disagree, I invite you to live among them for a few years.

I have.  It is that experience that pushes me to qualify my opinions.

Overall, +1 (outta rep points for another couple hours, so this'll have to do).

[CV75]

Log, on 31 May 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

It's that last question ...

RE: "Do you believe the Bible to be the only inspired and infallible Word of God, our final authority in all matters
of faith and conduct?" I would reply “Yes,” since “our” refers to them and (presumably) school policy, not me personally!

[thesometimesaint]

Just keep in mind that they will receive their reward.

[Bob Crockett]

Mormons shouldn't be bellyaching, really, about being excluded from the trappings of evangelicalism when we teach that all professors of religion are corrupt.

I started the application for doctoral work at Fuller Theological Seminary, only to be discouraged when I asked if my ecclesiastical recommendation could be a Mormon bishop.   No big deal.  We make our bed the way we want and shouldn't complain about the sheets we pick.

[Storm Rider]

Bob Crockett, on 01 June 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Mormons shouldn't be bellyaching, really, about being excluded from the trappings of evangelicalism when we teach that all professors of religion are corrupt.

I started the application for doctoral work at Fuller Theological Seminary, only to be discouraged when I asked if my ecclesiastical recommendation could be a Mormon bishop.   No big deal.  We make our bed the way we want and shouldn't complain about the sheets we pick.

Yup, that is what I hear every Sunday; how corrupt these professors of religion are.  I hear it in Sacrament, Sunday School, and Priesthood; a constant drum beat.....not.  I cannot remember the last time I heard this discussed in Church.  When the full message of the First Vision is discussed, as in the entire transcript, you might hear it.

Bobby, you can find it stated, but being "taught" is more than a stretch.  As leaders will always say, stick to the fundamentals:  repentance, faith, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  That is what is taught weekly in Church.  I will take those sheets everyday!

[The Nehor]

They have every right to exclude us and we really shouldn't try to attend these kinds of places on the basis of "being Christian" unless we are willing to fight for our Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, pagan, atheist etc. brothers and sisters for their right to attend too.

[thesometimesaint]

To paraphrase Gandhi;

I like your Christ just fine, your christian actions... not so much.

[Gervin]

Storm Rider, on 31 May 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

I learned while a teenager that Evangelicals were not to be trusted and are anything but Christian when it comes to me being a LDS.  There is not a week that goes by that I am not reminded that they remain a lost people full of hate, contention, dishonesty, and evil.  These are the type of people that if Jesus were to be on earth today would quickly crucify him for not fitting into the image of the God they have created.  Thank God that there is a separation between Church and State; were it not so these are the people who would be burning every LDS at the stake as a heretic.

I realize this is a strong opinion, but it has been learned by living amongst them and dealing with their constant, consistent examples of being anything but Christian.  If you disagree, I invite you to live among them for a few years.

Of the 700 million people who identify as Evangelical (Lausanne Global Analysis, 2010) how many would you say you've been exposed to?  How many have you known on a personal basis, i.e., counted as friends?  Just curious.  I've been living "among them" for decades and my experience is quite different.

How many of the General Authorities do you suppose endorse your sentiment that Evangelicals are "a lost people full of hate, contention, dishonesty, and evil?"

Edited by Gervin, 01 June 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[oremites]

The Nehor, on 01 June 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

They have every right to exclude us and we really shouldn't try to attend these kinds of places on the basis of "being Christian" unless we are willing to fight for our Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, pagan, atheist etc. brothers and sisters for their right to attend too.

I'm not sure I understand your point.  None of those others you list claim to be Christian.  They wouldn't be trying to attend on the basis of "being Christian."  I'm not even sure the LDS student was enrolling on the basis of "being Christian."  They were probably enrolling because they wanted to go to a Christian school.

Like you, I totally support the school's right to exclude whoever they want.  I'll admit I don't understand the attitude of excluding non-Christians.  As long as the enrolling students understand exactly what the school is about, then let them come. Here's a golden opportunity to help a misguided Mormon learn about true Christianity while surrounded by Christian students and teachers.

[cinepro]

Storm Rider, on 01 June 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Bobby, you can find it stated, but being "taught" is more than a stretch.  As leaders will always say, stick to the fundamentals:  repentance, faith, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  That is what is taught weekly in Church.  I will take those sheets everyday!

If another religion had it in their scripture that my religion was "wrong", I'm not sure how much comfort I would feel if they insisted that even though it was "stated", they weren't teaching it every week.

But at least now I know what Joseph McConkie was talking about at the Joseph Smith Symposium:

Quote

In this context the reader is invited to consider three touchy or sensitive texts that stand at the very heart of our theology. These texts have been chosen to honor Joseph and Hyrum Smith, the great martyrs of our faith. They did not seal their testimony with their blood in Carthage Jail so that we may teach ethics. They did not die hoping that future generations of Latter-day Saints would say to the world, "Look, we are just like you." Elder John Taylor said that in death Joseph and Hyrum sought to seal the revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon (see D&C 135:1). They sought neither acceptance nor approval from the historical Christian world; indeed, in all matters of faith, they sought to stand independent of that world. As ironic as it may seem to some, it was in this course and in this course alone that they and those who sustained them expected to find peace.


Each of the three texts comes from the revelations of the Restoration, and each is frequently considered offensive by those not of our faith. Even within the Church some are uncomfortable with these texts and feel a need to apologize for them.

The first text comes from the Lord's preface to the Book of Commandments, in which He calls the Church recently organized by Joseph Smith "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30).

The second is part of the Prophet's account of the First Vision, in which he asked the Lord which church he should join: "I was answered," the Prophet said, "that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof'" (Joseph Smith-History 1:19).

The third text comes from the Book of Mormon, in which Nephi prophesied that in our day there would be "save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10).


Joseph Fielding McConkie “The First Vision and Religious Tolerance,” in A Witness for the Restoration: Essays in Honor of Robert J. Matthews, ed. Kent P. Jackson and Andrew C. Skinner (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 2007), 177–99.

Edited by cinepro, 01 June 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[KevinG]

Bob Crockett, on 01 June 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

...we teach that all professors of religion are corrupt.

You just failed Sunday School.

[thesometimesaint]

Gervin:

Most people count less than a couple of dozen close friends and family, add in maybe a couple dozen more from church, mosque, synagogue we associate regularly with, and add a few random people. We're talking at most around 40.

I doubt any GA subscribes to that view, but like most LDS the only time I get to "be with" them is in GC by way of the TV.

[cinepro]

KevinG, on 01 June 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

You just failed Sunday School.

I subscribe to the "limited scope of corruption" theory of the First Vision, where Jesus wasn't referring to all other Churches when he said "they were all wrong" and that "those professors were all corrupt", but only those in the upstate New York area in the spring of 1820. At that time, Joseph Smith's "world" was only a few counties big, so when Jesus said "all", He really meant "all that are within a radius of a few miles".

This would mean that there may have been non-wrong, non-corrupt churches and professors in other cities and counties, but since Joseph didn't specify a radius, the answer would probably just apply to those within easy commuting distance.

[The Nehor]

thesometimesaint, on 01 June 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

To paraphrase Gandhi;

I like your Christ just fine, your christian actions... not so much.

Considering Gandhi's love for mankind was mostly the love of a caricatured liberal (love mankind in the abstract, be a git to most everyone you actually meet) I take his thoughts with the Pacific Ocean's salt content.

[The Nehor]

cinepro, on 01 June 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

I subscribe to the "limited scope of corruption" theory of the First Vision, where Jesus wasn't referring to all other Churches when he said "they were all wrong" and that "those professors were all corrupt", but only those in the upstate New York area in the spring of 1820. At that time, Joseph Smith's "world" was only a few counties big, so when Jesus said "all", He really meant "all that are within a radius of a few miles".

This would mean that there may have been non-wrong, non-corrupt churches and professors in other cities and counties, but since Joseph didn't specify a radius, the answer would probably just apply to those within easy commuting distance.

I subscribe to the view that says corruption is something good gone wrong somewhere and not the view we have today where we usually use it to mean broken computers and politicians that take bribes.