29 replies to this topic

[volgadon]

Mike Reed, on 05 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Yes.  Bogdan's book is a good one.

Do you have any similar titles you'd recommend?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

With these, apparent, parrallels between ancient practices and Mormon Temple liturgy, the question that I have is this...

Does this prove that the rituals associated with Mormonism are true?

or

Is it an indication that the LDS Church is repeating the same mistakes that ancient Israel did, by looking beyond the mark?

• Jacob 4:14
  
  14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

[volgadon]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 06 June 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

With these, apparent, parrallels between ancient practices and Mormon Temple liturgy, the question that I have is this...

Does this prove that the rituals associated with Mormonism are true?

or

Is it an indication that the LDS Church is repeating the same mistakes that ancient Israel did, by looking beyond the mark?

• Jacob 4:14
  
  14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

There is a third option. Studying the use of ritualised drama in the religious context of the ancient world can provide additional depth into insights regarding LDS temple worship.

[volgadon]

Robert F. Smith, on 05 June 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Jews certainly got to see the Akitu festival in Babylon.

But was an equivalent performed in Israel and Judah in pre-exilic times, that is the question. Mowinkel and such have presented an interesting case, but it is still all to speculative.

Quote

The thing to ask is whether texts which many mainstream biblical scholars see as ritual, temple texts (Genesis 1-3, Song of Songs, Ruth, Job, many Psalms, etc.) were performed as pageants somewhere other than the temple, as with the Exagoge, and with medieval mystery plays.  We have plenty of that sort of thing in Ugaritic and other ancient Near Eastern texts -- esp. in Egypt where the pageants were temple-centered, but could also take place as journeys of a god from one temple to another (sometimes even going by boat on the Nile).  What about Israelite high places or bamot?

It seems very reasonable to suppose that sacred stories were performed. Shame there is a paucity in our data.

Quote

However, what did F. M. Cross mean in saying (Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic, 1973):

Israel's religion emerged from a mythopoeic past under the impact of certain historical experiences which stimulated the creation of an epic cycle and its associated covenant rites of the early time.  Thus epic, rather than the Canaanite cosmogonic myth, was featured in the ritual drama of the old Israelite cultus.  At the same time the epic events and their interpretation were shaped strongly by inherited mythic patterns and language, so that they gained a vertical dimension in addition to their horizontal, historical stance.  In this tension between mythic and historical elements the meaning of Israel's history became transparent.

Good quote. Haven't read the book in a while.

[volgadon]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 06 June 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

With these, apparent, parrallels between ancient practices and Mormon Temple liturgy, the question that I have is this...

Is it an indication that the LDS Church is repeating the same mistakes that ancient Israel did, by looking beyond the mark?

• Jacob 4:14
  
  14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

Feel fry to explain why you think this refers to the ritual use of drama.

[mfbukowski]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 06 June 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

With these, apparent, parrallels between ancient practices and Mormon Temple liturgy, the question that I have is this...

Does this prove that the rituals associated with Mormonism are true?

or

Is it an indication that the LDS Church is repeating the same mistakes that ancient Israel did, by looking beyond the mark?

• Jacob 4:14
  
  14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

Now how is this supposed to explain the parallels again?

Let me guess.  You've got stiff necked Jews and stiff necked Mormons- so all people with stiff necks come up with similar rituals without even knowing about the other people with stiff necks?

So how come there is nothing about neck pillows in the temple?  I missed the part about heating pads too...  

[WalkerW]

volgadon, on 27 May 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

http://www.duke.edu/...s/48/Davies.pdf

This is an interesting article. The Mishnah Taanit 4:2 mentions that the creation account from Genesis was recited out loud in villages when their priests functioned at the temple. The article I've linked to shows how Ezekiel the Tragedian's play, the "Exagoge," used the Greek cultural medium of the tragedy in finding a substitute for the paschal sacrifice held at the temple. Alexandria was a long way from Jerusalem. The solution was a sacred performance (either recital or acting), indeed, a re-enactment of a scriptural narrative, using both Greek dramatic conventions and midrashic interpolations. I think this has implications for LDS temple worship as well, given the importance drama plays in it.

Why are you so freakin' cool, Volgadon?

By the way, have you mentioned the Mishnah Ta'anit before? I recall you linking something similar to Joseph Smith's temple drama. It may have been another festival whose overall theme was the creation.

Edited by WalkerW, 09 June 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[volgadon]

WalkerW, on 09 June 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Why are you so freakin' cool, Volgadon?

By the way, have you mentioned the Mishnah Ta'anit before? I recall you linking something similar to Joseph Smith's temple drama. It may have been another festival whose overall theme was the creation.

I'm sure I've mentioned Mishnah Ta'anit before, but the question is when. Maybe during the facebook days. I think I mentioned it in connection with Rosh ha-Shanah, as the creation of the world is an important subtext. This is from footnote 70 in p. 39 of Lee I. Levine's "The Synagogue."

Quote

M Ta‘anit 4, 2; see comments by Albeck, Mishnah, II, 495–96. At first glance, there seems to be little connection between the reading of the creation story and the Temple service. Two possible explanations come to mind:
1. The association may derive from the apparent connection between the building of the Tabernacle (Exod. 25–40) and the creation story, on the one hand, i.e., the subdivision of the former into seven parts (six deal with the actual process of building, i.e., with creation, and the last with the Sabbath law), and, on the other hand, the completion of the Tabernacle on New Year’s Day (Exod. 40:17), traditionally associated with the Sabbath after the Creation. In other verses as well the Sabbath is associated with the Temple (Lev. 19:30; 26:2). Such a connection—already made in rabbinic sources—may also explain why the period of service for each priestly course extended from Sabbath to Sabbath, reminiscent of the week of creation. See Cassuto, Commentary on Exodus, 334–35, 447ff.; Weinfeld, ‘‘Sabbath Temple and the Enthronement of the Lord,’’ 501–12; Sarna, Exploring Exodus, 196–220.
2. In rabbinic literature, there is a tradition that the creation of the world began on the Temple Mount, on its foundation stone (הייתשה ןבא). A related tradition speaks of Adam being created from the dust of the
Temple Mount, where he was later buried. The Christians knew of this tradition and subsequently transferred Adam’s burial spot to Golgotha, in reaction to which later rabbinic sources claim he was buried in the Cave of Machpelah in Hebron. See Ginzberg, LegendsoftheJews,I, 12; V, 14–16, 125–26; Gafni, ‘‘Pre-Histories of Jerusalem,’’ 10–16. See also Terrien, ‘‘Omphalos Myth,’’ 315–38.

Levine also suggests that the practice mentioned in Ta'anit is as early as Chronicles, which wouldn't surprise me.

[volgadon]

mfbukowski, on 08 June 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

Now how is this supposed to explain the parallels again?

Let me guess.  You've got stiff necked Jews and stiff necked Mormons- so all people with stiff necks come up with similar rituals without even knowing about the other people with stiff necks?

So how come there is nothing about neck pillows in the temple?  I missed the part about heating pads too...  

Wait, how did you find out about the heating pads? I can't believe someone let the cat out of the bag. Heads will roll.

[volgadon]

volgadon, on 06 June 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Feel fry to explain why you think this refers to the ritual use of drama.

Embarrassing, I just noticed I wrote fry rather than free. Still, if BookofMormonLuvr would care to explain he considers those verses a reference to ritual drama, I'd be more than happy to listen. If he susbtantiates his point that would be even better, all I usually get is a drive-by dismissal.