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Heavenly Father In The Old Testament?

Maidservant

By Maidservant
in General Discussions

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Maidservant Mentor

Maidservant

Posted
Posted

I have been attempting a study of our Father in heaven in the Old Testament and so far--he's not there. There are a few references to the Lord as a father, but these seem honorary or metaphorical based on his qualities (such as mercy) and as a general father to the lineage of Israel. It seems that the persons and culture that produced the documents of the Old Testament did not understand God to be a personal Father of their spirits.

Does anyone have any insights or passages to share from the Old Testament; or from alternative sources contemporary to the Old Testament to give any glimpse on the fatherhood of God? I know that once we hit New Testament, the Restoration, etc, there are new conceptual situations. But I would like to confine my exploration and inquiry on the matter to "pre-Christ". Non-Judeo Christian texts and traditions are great, too, if you have any insights or sources; as long as they fit the time period.

Thanks!

Similarly, does anyone have any knowledge on what the "first" writing samples we have on earth, that are still with us? Or where I could find that informaiton?

Kevin Christensen Grand Master

Kevin Christensen

Posted
Posted (edited)

I have been attempting a study of our Father in heaven in the Old Testament and so far--he's not there. There are a few references to the Lord as a father, but these seem honorary or metaphorical based on his qualities (such as mercy) and as a general father to the lineage of Israel. It seems that the persons and culture that produced the documents of the Old Testament did not understand God to be a personal Father of their spirits.

Does anyone have any insights or passages to share from the Old Testament; or from alternative sources contemporary to the Old Testament to give any glimpse on the fatherhood of God? I know that once we hit New Testament, the Restoration, etc, there are new conceptual situations. But I would like to confine my exploration and inquiry on the matter to "pre-Christ". Non-Judeo Christian texts and traditions are great, too, if you have any insights or sources; as long as they fit the time period.

Thanks!

Similarly, does anyone have any knowledge on what the "first" writing samples we have on earth, that are still with us? Or where I could find that informaiton?

Read Margaret Barker, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. She starts by observing a Biblical distinction that the sons of El Elyon are all heavenly beings, and the sons of Yahweh are all humans. And that the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Deut. 32:8-9 depicts Yahweh as a son of El Elyon. She works through the Old Testament, Jewish Writers, Targums, Philo, Gnostic writings, the Early Christian writers, and the New Testament, showing where that distinction continues.

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Edited by Kevin Christensen
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CASteinman Grand Master

CASteinman

Posted
Posted

I have been attempting a study of our Father in heaven in the Old Testament and so far--he's not there. There are a few references to the Lord as a father, but these seem honorary or metaphorical based on his qualities (such as mercy) and as a general father to the lineage of Israel. It seems that the persons and culture that produced the documents of the Old Testament did not understand God to be a personal Father of their spirits.

Does anyone have any insights or passages to share from the Old Testament; or from alternative sources contemporary to the Old Testament to give any glimpse on the fatherhood of God? I know that once we hit New Testament, the Restoration, etc, there are new conceptual situations. But I would like to confine my exploration and inquiry on the matter to "pre-Christ". Non-Judeo Christian texts and traditions are great, too, if you have any insights or sources; as long as they fit the time period.

Thanks!

Similarly, does anyone have any knowledge on what the "first" writing samples we have on earth, that are still with us? Or where I could find that informaiton?

It is my belief that After about Genesis 3, God the Father no longer (or almost never) appears actually appears. From that point forward, it is almost always Jesus - who speaks for the Father as well as for Himself.

Thinking Grand Master

Thinking

Posted
Posted

Anytime you see the LORD (in all caps & the L bigger than ORD), it is a substitute for Jehovah. Of course LDS believe that Jehovah is Christ, but others believe that Jehovah is the Father.

volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted

While the Hebrew Bible does show God as forming the person in the womb, that isn't its main concern with God as father. I highly recommend Frank Moore Cross' essay on the Divine Kinsman. This concept was an extension of the tribal framework. People became part of the family by covenant. God provided for and protected them, requiring in turn that they be loyal to Him and aid one another.

The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

Anytime you see the LORD (in all caps & the L bigger than ORD), it is a substitute for Jehovah. Of course LDS believe that Jehovah is Christ, but others believe that Jehovah is the Father.

And I find the distinction as to who is Jehovah mostly useless. Joseph Smith called the Father Jehovah more then once. I take the statement that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament to mean that when God appeared to the prophets it was Jesus appearing and not the Father and nothing more. Any further attempt at separating which of them did what is probably pointless and possibly even impossible.

CASteinman Grand Master

CASteinman

Posted
Posted (edited)

From Wikipedia: It is generally agreed that true writing of language (not only numbers) was invented independently in at least two places: Mesopotamia (specifically, ancient Sumer) around 3200 BC and Mesoamerica around 600 BC.

They assume, of course, that there was no cultural contact or transfusion to Mesoamerica in the intervening 2600 years.

Edited by CASteinman
Darren10 Grand Master

Darren10

Posted
Posted

Maidservant;

Kevin Christensen's starting point is excellent. He maintains a great website dedicated to Margaret Barker's works and i'll provide a direct which I found through his site which hits directly on topic of Barker's assertion that "God Most High" (El Elyon) also known as "Elohim' is what Christians saw as the Father and YHWH or "LORD" as Christians saw as the Son.

The Second Person

Darren10 Grand Master

Darren10

Posted
Posted

And I find the distinction as to who is Jehovah mostly useless. Joseph Smith called the Father Jehovah more then once. I take the statement that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament to mean that when God appeared to the prophets it was Jesus appearing and not the Father and nothing more. Any further attempt at separating which of them did what is probably pointless and possibly even impossible.

I think Jehovah is most definitely Jesus and Elohim the Father. however, there is room in LDS theology to interchange "father" as a title. thus you may also interchange "Elohim" to refer to the Son and "Jehovah" to the Father. However, by and large they are used to identify the two separate and distinct divine beings of God the Father and of His Only Begotten Son.

maklelan Experienced

maklelan

Posted
Posted

You might want to check out the book Ancient Near Eastern Literature and the Hebrew Scriptures About the Fatherhood of God. While the author is a bit conservative and reads it all as metaphorical, it gathers a lot of good information. I have a scan of a portion of the book if you'd like to look at it. I also have a paper here that discusses my preference for rendering Gen 14:19, 22 as "El Elyon, Begetter of Heaven and Earth." David Bokovoy's recent dissertation is about Yhwh as a sexual deity, which is related.

Kevin Christensen Grand Master

Kevin Christensen

Posted
Posted

Maidservant;

Kevin Christensen's starting point is excellent. He maintains a great website dedicated to Margaret Barker's works and i'll provide a direct which I found through his site which hits directly on topic of Barker's assertion that "God Most High" (El Elyon) also known as "Elohim' is what Christians saw as the Father and YHWH or "LORD" as Christians saw as the Son.

The Second Person

Actually, the www.thinlyveiled.com website belongs to Howard Hopkins, and the www.margaretbarker.com website is Margaret's own, a gift from her children. Just giving credit where credit is due.

Thanks for linking the Second Person essay, which is a helpful preview of The Great Angel.

Kevin C.

altersteve Grand Master

altersteve

Posted
Posted

And I find the distinction as to who is Jehovah mostly useless. Joseph Smith called the Father Jehovah more then once. I take the statement that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament to mean that when God appeared to the prophets it was Jesus appearing and not the Father and nothing more. Any further attempt at separating which of them did what is probably pointless and possibly even impossible.

This is my position as well.

Buzzard Mentor

Buzzard

Posted
Posted

Googling Deuteronomy 32:8-9 brings up this interesting piece from our friends at Liberty University:

http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1277&context=lts_fac_pubs

Now, excuse my ignorance, because I'm no scholar, just a guy who hangs around on forums and reads what the smarter folk have discovered, but I had never heard that before the Babylonian exile, the Hebrews knew that Elohim and Jehovah were two seperate beings, or that they were aware of the great pre-earth "Council of the Gods". And to see is discussed dispassionatly from a scholarly EV source...well, holy Book of Abraham, Batman!

Darren10 Grand Master

Darren10

Posted
Posted

Kevin Christensen;

Thanks for that correction. You did provide a big presentation which demonstrated the correlation between Margaret Barker's works and wha the LDS believe. I found it very insighful when I first began reading into Barker.

cinepro Grand Master

cinepro

Posted
Posted (edited)

From Wikipedia: It is generally agreed that true writing of language (not only numbers) was invented independently in at least two places: Mesopotamia (specifically, ancient Sumer) around 3200 BC and Mesoamerica around 600 BC.

Wait...600 BC in Mesoamerica!? That's about the time Lehi's family got there! That is an amazing coincidence...

Except that's not what Wikipedia says:

Mesoamerica

A stone slab with 3,000-year-old writing was discovered in the Mexican state of Veracruz and is an example of the oldest script in the Western Hemisphere, preceding the oldest Zapotec writing by approximately 500 years.[23][24][25] It is thought to be Olmec.

Of several pre-Columbian scripts in Mesoamerica, the one that appears to have been best developed, and the only one to be deciphered, is the Maya script. The earliest inscriptions which are identifiably Maya date to the 3rd century BC. Maya writing used logograms complemented by a set of syllabic glyphs, somewhat similar in function to modern Japanese writing.

Here's the original NY Times article on the stone slab:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/15/science/15writing.html?_r=1

Edited by cinepro
Kiviuq Explorer

Kiviuq

Posted
Posted

I find it really hard to coax modern Christianity out of the Old Testament. Early Christians found it useful to adopt the Old Testament as scripture to try to claim some “ancientness” (and hence legitimacy) to their message while at the same time rejecting the laws it declared. The attributes of the God of the Old Testament are nothing like those of the Savior who gathered the little children and spoke of love. It’s not at all surprising then that it’s hard to see clear unambiguous teachings of a separate Father and Son in the Old Testament. They just didn’t believe in such at the time.

volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted

You are incorrect. I quoted Wikipedia exactly.

You are right.

Invention of writing

Writing numbers for record keeping began long before the writing of language. See History of writing ancient numbers for how the writing of numbers began.

It is generally agreed that true writing of language (not only numbers) was invented independently in at least two places: Mesopotamia (specifically, ancient Sumer) around 3200 BC and Mesoamerica around 600 BC. Twelve Mesoamerican scripts are known, the oldest from the Olmec or Zapotec of Mexico. It is believed that Jiroft’s writing language came into existence at the same time Mesopotamia started developing a writing system. According to the carbon 14 tests conducted on the layers in which Jiroft inscription was discovered, this inscription was dated to 2500 BCE. Although such tests have not been carried out on Mesopotamia inscription yet, based on the discovered evidence so far, archaeologists strongly believe that Mesopotamia’s script goes back to 2600-2700 BCE at most.

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