100 replies to this topic

[Anakin7]

The other day while in a local fast food establishment [where I have eaten adinfinentum times over the past 20 + years], and one of the owners son's [ The family are Greek Orthodox and we have a awesome relationship] introdused me to one of his friends an evangelical christian who was eating there. After a brief introduction [and him finding out I was "Mormon"] he stated that biblicaly I was a non Christian cultist for believing that Jesus was the spirit brother of lucifer. He stated that lucifer was a created being of GOD- Jesus, and was an angel who was in charge of the music in heaven. and I tried to explain our position as satan originaly being one of the bene ha elohiem [Son's of God] in Gen 1-2, Duet 32:8-9, Job 1+2, Isaiah 40-50 in various assembly council meeting's/setting's in Heaven over a period before and during time.But he gave his Bible alone and Jesus creating Lucifer and no brotherhood of the two because of that explanation. I gave him some some LDS Aplogetic works concering this but the were immediatly thrown in the garbage/trash. I then remembered about pearls and swine. Any future advise ?. Thanks.

In His Debt/Grace
Anakin7
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[thesometimesaint]

Give it all the attention it deserves.

[cdowis]

Another approach is to give him a pass-along card which directs him to mormon.org.  They have a chat feature and he can ask his questions there.

AND then have a nice chat about the church and what happens there.

As an apologist, I have to be very careful in the "real world" with nonmembers.  I have to separate Mormonism as a hobby, and as a religious activity.

[Anakin7]

cdowis, on 22 May 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Another approach is to give him a pass-along card which directs him to mormon.org.  They have a chat feature and he can ask his questions there.

AND then have a nice chat about the church and what happens there.

As an apologist, I have to be very careful in the "real world" with nonmembers.  I have to separate Mormonism as a hobby, and as a religious activity.

Well I was wise enough NOt to give him a pass along card for it too would have ended up in the trash can.

In His Debt/Grace
Anakin7
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[The Nehor]

Anakin7, on 22 May 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

But he gave his Bible alone and Jesus creating Lucifer and no brotherhood of the two because of that explanation. I gave him some some LDS Aplogetic works concering this but the were immediatly thrown in the garbage/trash. I then remembered about pearls and swine. Any future advise ?. Thanks.

Ask him why God created Lucifer.

[cdowis]

Anakin7, on 22 May 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Well I was wise enough NOt to give him a pass along card for it too would have ended up in the trash can.

It avoids contention without running away from the question.  If the question was sincere, he will go to the web site.

The Nehor, on 22 May 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Ask him why God created Lucifer.

Why did God create Satan instead of another Gabriel?  Surely the Lord knew what Satan would do.

Edited by cdowis, 22 May 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[Freedom]

evangelical Christians are a dying breed where I live. I miss the days of being attacked for my religion all the time. Most people are agnostic and just don't care. I don't know which is worse.

[The Nehor]

Freedom, on 22 May 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

evangelical Christians are a dying breed where I live. I miss the days of being attacked for my religion all the time. Most people are agnostic and just don't care. I don't know which is worse.

Agnosticism. I think God looks more kindly on those railing against him then those who dismiss Him with apathy. The former at least still care.

[Anakin7]

The Nehor, on 22 May 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Ask him why God created Lucifer.

He believes [As many of out non LDS Christian Brothers/Sisters] that GOD - Jesus created lucifer

In His Debt/Grace
Anakin7
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Cobalt-70]

I don't think there is any really good apologetic approach to this. The Divine Council angle either raises Lucifer to the level of a god, or demotes Jesus to the level of an angel.

But maybe a "less bad" apologetic approach is to minimize or even get rid of the "spirit babies" doctrine--the idea that both Jesus and Lucifer emerged as spirit babies from the birth canal of a Heavenly Mother. I know that is a treasured doctrine among modern Mormons, but it is nowhere in the LDS canon. What is in the LDS canon is the idea that neither Jesus nor Lucifer, or even any of humankind, is a created being. All were in the beginning with God. (D&C 93:29). Jesus is the brother of Lucifer only in the sense that Jesus is our own brother--because we and Lucifer have a kinship with God and are made in his image, as Jesus is the "express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3). But Mormons also believe in the statement in Hebrews 1:4 that says the Son is far in status above the angels, including Lucifer.

The problem is, how do you minimize the "spirit babies" doctrine when that noncanonical doctrine has become so widespread, and any Evangelical can go and find numerous post-Smith quotations by LDS leaders?

[The Nehor]

Anakin7, on 22 May 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

He believes [As many of out non LDS Christian Brothers/Sisters] that GOD - Jesus created lucifer

Then ask him how he likes being Satan's brother.....

[Anakin7]

The Nehor, on 22 May 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Then ask him how he likes being Satan's brother.....

To him and many of our non LDS Christian Bro/Sis Angels are are a different level of reality/species than God The Father God Jesus Christ God Holy Ghost because angels are "created".

In His Debt/Grace
Anakin7
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited by Anakin7, 22 May 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[The Nehor]

Anakin7, on 22 May 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

To him and many of our non LDS Christian Bro/Sis Angels are are a different level of reality/species than God The Father God Jesus Christ God Holy Ghost because angels are "created".

Okay, then ask them how Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel feel about being brothers with the little twerp.

[Anakin7]

I have also been told/read that though angels appear male they are in reality genderless creations.

In His Debt/Grace
Anakin7
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited by Anakin7, 22 May 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[The Nehor]

Anakin7, on 22 May 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I have also been told/read that though angels appear male they are in reality genderless creations.

Ask them to substantiate that from the Bible.

[Rincewind]

Lactantius.

[altersteve]

When Lucifer rebelled and was cast out of heaven, he essentially made the choice to no longer be part of God's family. Jesus Christ and Satan are not "brothers."

Cobalt-70, on 22 May 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

But maybe a "less bad" apologetic approach is to minimize or even get rid of the "spirit babies" doctrine--the idea that both Jesus and Lucifer emerged as spirit babies from the birth canal of a Heavenly Mother.

No Mormon I know has ever expressed the belief that Jesus Christ, Satan, or anyone else came from our Heavenly Mother's "birth canal."

Edited by altersteve, 22 May 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[Deborah]

I seriously don't understand why it is more upsetting to have a "brother" who falls away than a God who created evil. We all have family members who can be called "black sheep." Their behavior shouldn't reflect on us.

Furthermore when satan made his choice he was no longer a son or a brother as he lost his inheritance.

[altersteve]

Deborah, on 22 May 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Furthermore when satan made his choice he was no longer a son or a brother as he lost his inheritance.

Bingo.

[rpn]

The idea that Christ or Heavenly Father (yes I know they have them all rapped up together but it makes less sense anyway if it was Christ) created Satan is one of the big stumbling blocks of historical Christianity.  It makes God just as responsible for evil as He is for good.