93 replies to this topic

[followerofemmanuel]

longview, on 26 May 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

No.  There are two parts to the Atonement [Grace].  First part is unconditional [totally free] which is given to EVERY person born into this world regardless if they were monstrous people such as Hitler, Attila the Hun, or any other depraved or violent perpetrators.  That gift is the resurrection entailing the reunification of the body and the spirit [your actual person] with some degree of glory [Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, ...]

The other part is conditional but NOT in the sense that the Savior needs us to do part of the work.  Nothing we do will MERIT any fraction of the Atonement.  We are totally dependent on Him.  But He does require us to exert ourselves in obedience, faith [extremely important], learning, wisdom, empathy, humility, all things that we experience in this "vale of tears".  These efforts are required in order to fulfill the purpose for having mortal [probationary] experiences and to fully participate in the process of the Atonement which our Lord so graciously has offered to us, which is to exalt us and allow us to become like Him.  But not everybody will want to exist in the Celestial realm, they may prefer lower kingdoms or even outer darkness.



Not quite.  Repentance alone is not enough.  We will not MERIT anything with simple promises.  We need to go through a refining process . . .


Moroni 10:32

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:20

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

Thanks Longview for your comments.  I want to understand them further.  I am pretty sure I read in the book of Mormon about heaven and hell and it seemed to be presented in a way I related.  I don't remember reading about the Celestial, Teresstrial and Telestial parts yet.  I have not finished reading the book yet.  I wondered if you could tell me what chapter that is in. I can't imagine Hitler recieving such grace with out repentence and faith so I also want to understand this teaching more too please.  Where or how would I read more about this.  Is this your opinion or is this in the Book of Mormon too?  If I am asking to many questions, please don't feel obligated to answer.

Edited by followerofemmanuel, 26 May 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[DBMormon]

longview- I agree with the staement of it being a refining process - All who end up in the Celestial Kingdom will have experienced the Mighty Change aka having become sanctified. It is a process and one must have Christ's Grace to enable him to do it.

Also Enduring to the end is crucial and will be shared later on, so please be patient.  One piece of the pie each day, otherwise you will be sugared out!!




Zerinus - the parable about lunch is wrong.  If your good behavior means you get Ice cream then on some level you merited it or  earned it.  Yet the scriptures say it is wholly upon the merits, mercy, and grace of God.

The actually being good doesn't get you the ice cream in my theology.  The trying or effort does.  God is not result based.  He looketh on the heart

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 26 May 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Zerinus - the parable about lunch is wrong.  If your good behavior means you get Ice cream then on some level you merited it or  earned it.  Yet the scriptures say it is wholly upon the merits, mercy, and grace of God.

The actually being good doesn't get you the ice cream in my theology.  The trying or effort does.  God is not result based.  He looketh on the heart

The parable is just a parable; it is not meant to spell doctrine precisely. But the scriptures are clear. Mercy is conditional on repentance. There is no getting away from that scriptural fact.

[DBMormon]

JUSTIFICATION  &  SANCTIFICATION

To be Justified is to be pardoned or found not guilty of one’s sins or transgressions.  There are two ways that most of Christianity sees that we can be Justified though there is also a third way mentioned earlier that has been revealed in latter days.  1) – we can keep the law perfectly, which we know is impossible.   Paul constantly refers to how according to the law none are perfect no not one.  Paul glories in his infirmities as he is living the gospel law of faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost, endure to the end rather than the Law of Moses or keeping rules.  2) – we can repent and utilize the Atonement of Christ as to attain his mercy and forgiveness.  As Job states, our sins though they be a red as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.  3) – to suffer for our own sins as Christ suffered (D&C19: 15- 18).  

Any of these three will justify us but only number two will also assist us in the process of being sanctified or becoming perfect with Christ.  Some folks think they can go through the third path and upon completing this suffering, they can enter into the Celestial kingdom having been justified.  But they miss the real issue.  D&C 88:21 tells us we not only must be justified but that to be Celestial, to have a Celestial Body, to enter the Celestial Glory; one must be Sanctified as well.  What is this sanctification that is being spoken of.  It is to be spiritually changed.  It is the mighty change spoken of by Alma.  It is being perfected in Christ, to have ones soul expand, to have ones heart swell.  It is to be in a progressing change that ultimately has us having no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually (Mosiah 5:2).  

Alma chapter 5 is one of my favorite chapters in the Book of Mormon.  The whole first half of the chapter revolves around describing what this mighty change is.  In essence it is to have the Countenance of Christ upon us (Alma 5:19).   Then in the second half in verse 26 we are asked to make an evaluation of ourselves.  Essentially even if we had once felt this mighty change we are to look ourselves in the mirror and see if today we still feel God’s Grace and Mercy, If this mighty change is still active in our life.  You see, it is not good enough to have felt the change once long a go when we converted or when we were on our mission or when we turned our life around after hitting rock bottom.  What happened then is not important.  It is whether the change is going on right now.  If we look in the mirror and do not feel this principle active in our life currently then it is time to go back to the beginning and exercise faith and humility and seek God’s grace and mercy and bring this sanctifying power back into our life.  This sanctifying enabling power has the ability to make us better than we are.  1st Corinthians 15:10 tells us that a life influenced by grace will cause a change in behavior causing one to better serve God and his children.  Brad Wilcox stated in his talk “My Grace is sufficient” that a friend had told him, “A Life impacted by grace will begin to resemble Christ's life”.   Grace is not about giving us a free pass, it is about helping us to progress in our becoming like Christ.

So how do we the eternally indebted and always sinning become truly Christlike?  How does this Grace work?  When we are baptized we enter a covenant with the Savior.  This covenant we are taught is a two way promise.  We promise to  be “willing” or to “try” to take his name upon us and keep his commandments and stand as a witness of Christ at all times (See Mosiah 18 or the sacrament prayer on the bread).   God in turn promises us his spirit.  In this covenant relationship we join with Christ and become one with him. 2nd Corinthians 12:9 tells us that Christ stated to Paul that not only is his grace sufficient but that Christ's strength is made perfect in our weakness.  And Paul concludes here that he has no problem with his infirmities.  He is not only talking about his health but his weakness and sins too.  Remember, Christ is the physician whose ultimate goal is to heal the spiritually sick.  Paul recognized that even though he still had spiritual weakness and was a sinner imself like all of us are, that he would glory in God's grace as it was Grace that saved him not his works.  Paul's words are used so often by those outside the church to try to show we are saved by grace alone, but throughout his words, true doctrine is plainly taught.  Paul knew works didn't save him but that God's Grace would impact him and change him in such a way as to be put on the path of progression that leads back to Christ and being Christlike.  

This covenant relationship is mentioned in Moroni 10:32-33 where we are told that if we come unto Christ we are immediately perfected in Christ.  In other words we, even though a sinner, get to borrow Christ's perfection and be imperfect but “Perfected” in him.  Then as we are on the path to deny all ungodliness and to love God with all your mind, might, and strength; we receive grace and and began to become sanctified and become “Perfect in Christ.  Two things here, One – putting off all ungodliness must be understood as a process, if not we will each find ourselves falling short and continually feeling hopeless and discouraged.  Two – Notice that immediately upon coming unto Christ we are perfected in him.  Then after going through this process of the refiners fire and denying all ungodliness we eventually at some future moment in the distance of eternity we become Perfect.  Perfection is the real goal.  It must be done with Christ and his grace, and must be understood in the context of an eternal process and that we should feel the pressure lifted off of us to attain it today, this week, this year.  While I feel from Paul's words that he worked hard to serve God and God's children, I do not sense that he felt any pressure from God to be perfect in the here and now.  The Grace of God relieved his pressure not added to it.  C. S. Lewis wisely remarked, "it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way" (Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 129).  

Edited by reelmormon, 26 May 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[DBMormon]

will be up early so I thought I would put tomorrow's up early
Have a great Sabbath Day

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 26 May 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

JUSTIFICATION  &  SANCTIFICATION

<snip>

To be justified means to be absolved from sin; to be sanctified means to be made holy. To Adam the Lord said:

Moses 6:

60 For by the water [baptism] ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Keeping the commandments precedes justification and sanctification. In the D&C the Lord has further revealed:

D&C 88:

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.
35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

Also:

D&C 101:

5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.

The Lord chastens people so they might repent. Those who don't cannot be sanctified or justified.

Edited by zerinus, 27 May 2012 - 01:11 AM.

[DBMormon]

Zerinus - I appreciate your continued emphasis on repentance.  Do you feel I am not including repentance in my understanding of the "doctrine of Christ"?

If anything putting in effort and repenting are the only two things I think can be positively attributed to our part.
But for me both effort and repentance do not involve good works.

  Alma 24 :11  makes it clear that repentance really is the "all we can do"  =
"And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain"

Edited by reelmormon, 27 May 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[DBMormon]

BONUS SUNDAY - you get an extra chapter in the "Doctrine of Christ"


REPENTANCE

One step we seem to want to skip past is Repentance. Repentance is the act of asking for forgiveness and the giving up of the sin in the first place. Alma 32:13 tells us that he who is humble will repent, and he who repents shall find mercy. All of the principles discussed through this are inseparably connected. We need to see that. We are given Weakness so that we will be Humble. He who is humble will look to Christ and exercise faith and repent. He who has faith and repents will find Mercy and Grace. Over Eternity, Mercy and Grace will Sanctify us and make us Celestial. We can not be Celestial if any one of these is missing from our life. Without Repentance, Mercy will not come into our lives and we will not become the changed person God needs us to be to enter back into his presence. At it's root Repentance is not about punishment or payment but it is about "Change"
-“The repenting sinner must suffer for his sins, but this suffering has a different purpose than punishment or payment. Its purpose is change” (The Lord’s Way [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1991], p. 223; - Dallin Oaks

Helaman 4:15 lets us see that there are blessings predicated upon repentance. One of them is to prosper. We may want to define what this means as worldly wealth or good health, but it is up to God to decide how this is fulfilled and more times than not is likely prospering in a spiritual increase as that is the only prospering that moves us forward to being like Christ. Alma 42:4 shares with us that this life is just that a time to prepare to meet God, a time to repent and to serve him. While serving him is an outward action towards others; Repentance though perhaps requiring outward actions to show the sincerity, is of itself an inward action. Repentance is introspective. It is seeing in oneself one’s flaws, shortcomings, and imperfections and working with Christ to correct them. It is giving all your sins to know him (Alma 22:18).

Alma 9:13 explains that if we do not keep the commandments and we could logically add “do not repent of those broken commandments” that we shall be cut off from the land. This land or the land that we shall reside in in some future Glory? Remember they are the same. This earth of the here and now, is the future Celestial Kingdom. D&C 19:15 – 18 explains that if we choose not to repent that we will then be called to suffer even as Christ Suffered. We should be forewarned though, this suffering will not sanctify us, it will not change us. We will have paid the debt for our sin but we would be left having not become more Christlike and therefore being left to a lesser glory. Moroni 8:10 helps us see that repentance must precede our being baptized. Repentance again is part of the process of becoming humble. Alma 6:3 links not repenting to pride. Will we let our pride keep us from living with God again? Pride is the opposite of humility and also the biggest factor in slowing down, halting, or even reversing sanctifying spiritual change.

Mosiah 4:10 teaches us a important principle we must understand. There Is more to “believing” that we must repent. In Fact we say there is more to it then just “believing” that we need faith, or “believing” in being humble. We must also do them. Many people know there are things in their life that need repented of. They recognize these unrepented sins will hold them back, they see that repentance is needed just as much as we need food and water to live but they put off the repentance. They will do it later, or perhaps they are willing to suffer as Christ did. They are afraid of the actions others might take on them to help them through the repentance process. Meanwhile they fail to comprehend the great disservice they are doing to themselves as they put off the necessary change they must go through. They are missing out on the mercy, and sanctification that comes through true repentance. They are preventing the spiritual growth that will allow them to be resurrected with a Celestial body and to live with God again and remain in his presence. If we could see things as God does, we would be eager to repent, to put off the natural man, to rid ourselves of our sins. How could any worry we have over repenting in this life have any value superior to that of Living with our Heavenly Father and his son and being heirs with Christ for eternity.
Repent, Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand!!!!

Edited by reelmormon, 27 May 2012 - 03:45 AM.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 27 May 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

Zerinus - I appreciate your continued emphasis on repentance.  Do you feel I am not including repentance in my understanding of the "doctrine of Christ"?

The emphasis is actually on keeping the commandments. Repentance becomes necessary when we deviate from those commandments. Its purpose is to bring us back into line with the commandments. And it is not "my emphasis" either; it is the Lord's emphasis. I am merely retelling what the Lord has already reiterated numerous times in the scriptures.

Quote

If anything putting in effort and repenting are the only two things I think can be positively attributed to our part.
But for me both effort and repentance do not involve good works.

To sin means to break God's commandments. To repent means to stop breaking them, start keeping them. If that is what you mean by "good works," then yes, repentance does involve good works. I, however, prefer to call it what the Lord has called it, which is just keeping God's commandments.

Quote

Alma 24 :11  makes it clear that repentance really is the "all we can do"  =
"And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain"

Not sure where you are going with that one. If you are implying that repentance does not involve keeping the commandments, you are seriously mistaken. That is not what those scriptures are saying.

Edited by zerinus, 27 May 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[longview]

followerofemmanuel, on 26 May 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Thanks Longview for your comments.  I want to understand them further.  I am pretty sure I read in the book of Mormon about heaven and hell and it seemed to be presented in a way I related.  I don't remember reading about the Celestial, Teresstrial and Telestial parts yet.  I have not finished reading the book yet.  I wondered if you could tell me what chapter that is in. I can't imagine Hitler recieving such grace with out repentence and faith so I also want to understand this teaching more too please.  Where or how would I read more about this.  Is this your opinion or is this in the Book of Mormon too?  If I am asking to many questions, please don't feel obligated to answer.

The main sources for learning about the "three degrees of glory" is in 1 Corinthians 15 and


Doctrine and Covenants 131:1

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
I do not remember any explicit references to this concept in the Book of Mormon.  You might want to search the cross references in the Bible Dictionary entry below.  It is part of LDS standard works.  If you do not have your own, go to http://www.lds.org/scriptures?lang=eng
Degrees of glory. It is apparent that if God rewards everyone according to the deeds done in the body, the term heaven as intended for man’s eternal home must include more kingdoms than one. In speaking of man in his resurrected state, Paul tells of glories like the sun, the moon, and the stars (1 Cor. 15:39–41). He also speaks of the “third heaven” (2 Cor. 12:2). Jesus spoke of “many mansions” or kingdoms (John 14:2). Latter-day revelation confirms the teaching of the Bible on these matters and verifies that there are three general categories or glories to which the members of the human family will be assigned in the judgment following their resurrection from the grave. These are known as the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms, of which the sun, moon, and stars are spoken of as being typical (D&C 76; 88:20–32; 131:1–4). In addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition, reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin.
As for Hitler, all of us were in the pre-existance [spirit world], which means we are all brothers and sisters.  Vast majority will end up in the Telestial Kingdom, the glory of the stars of varying "luminosity".  He probably is in the "dim bulb" category.  

[DBMormon]

Quote

To sin means to break God's commandments. To repent means to stop breaking them, start keeping them. If that is what you mean by "good works," then yes, repentance does involve good works. I, however, prefer to call it what the Lord has called it, which is just keeping God's commandments.

So we are talking semantics.  Know that when I say good works, what is meant is being a good hometeacher, obeying the word of wisdom, helping old ladies accross the street, going to all your meetings, visiting the widows and the orphans, good acts of christian service.

I just don't think there is a specified number or percentage of things we must do.  That there is no bar.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 27 May 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

So we are talking semantics.

I am not; maybe you are.

Quote

Know that when I say good works, what is meant is being a good hometeacher, obeying the word of wisdom, helping old ladies accross the street, going to all your meetings, visiting the widows and the orphans, good acts of christian service.

I just don't think there is a specified number or percentage of things we must do. That there is no bar.

Then you have a very narrow, limited, distorted concept of what it means to keeping the commandments. You are confusing "keeping the commandments" with "doing acts of service". Rendering acts of Christian service is one aspect of keeping the commandments; but not all of it. The "commandments" that we are required to "keep" are those such as is recorded in the Ten Commandments, or in the Sermon on the Mount, and similar passages as recorded in the Bible and modern scriptures of the Church. One of those commandments is to render acts of faithful service in the Church (or indeed outside of the Church). The Lord has outlined those in such passages of scripture as these:

Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee?  or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in?  or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

James 1:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 4:

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

D&C 58:

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

D&C 107:

99 Wherefore, now let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office in which he is appointed, in all diligence.
100 He that is slothful shall not be counted worthy to stand, and he that learns not his duty and shows himself not approved shall not be counted worthy to stand. Even so. Amen.

And many more passages that could be cited. These are indeed important commandments to keep--as important as any of the others. And they certainly present a challenge. But I don't believe that the Lord would give us these commandments if we were not able to keep them. We do the best we can, and still consider ourselves "unprofitable servants" (Luke 17:10); and we have confidence that the Lord in His goodness will accept our offering in the day of judgement. But let there no mistakes in anyone's mind that the Lord expects us to keep those commandments. You are deluding yourself if you think that you can get away with not keeping those commandments; and the Lord will let you off scot free. When the day of reckoning comes, we all have to give an account of how we have fulfilled our "stewardship" here on earth.

Edited by zerinus, 27 May 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[DBMormon]

Quote

Then you have a very narrow, limited, distorted concept of what it means to keeping the commandments. You are confusing "keeping the commandments" with "doing acts of service".

No, I am confusing Good Works with acts of service...... again semantics.

To me when we ephasize the actual keeping of commandments we can be motivated by many possible things.   I equate Good works with doing Christlike acts of service.  I see keeping the commandments as either an inward desire to be obedient or other possible negative reasons
Obedience is a inward trait that expresses itself outwardly,  Keeping the commandments is an outward expression that may or may not reflect the inner heart.  One can keep the commandments out of pride, for a reward,  

One can fail to keep the commandments and still have a heart that is right with God.  Nephi broke the commandment  "Thou Shalt Not kill"  in order to keep another commandment of God.   In your world of having to keep all the commandments, Nephi  would be in a lose/lose situation.  The gospel sometimes forces us to break some commandments in order to keep others.  I can not keep all the commandments (me personally, I do not keep them all and will never claim to)..... impossible.  By joining the church, I did not "honor my father and mother" and yet I sought a higher law.

The outward actions we take are not black and white but the inward Broken heart and contrite spirit are.  The gospel is a inward journey and one in which we are either moving towards God or away.  I do not keep all the commandments, and neither did Nephi (shalt not kill), Moses (shalt not kill), Joseph Smith (shalt not lie - polygamy), ect... and yet these three did not seem to see this as sin where repentance was needed.  

In order for all of us to grow in faith we have to move past a black and white world where one must keep the commandments perfectly or find himself outside the kingdom.  I am called to do what I can (Repent, have faith, keep trying) and God then does what he can (transform our nature and make us like him through his grace)  and this occurs over a lifetime and into eternity.

Edited by reelmormon, 27 May 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[KevinG]

The commandment is "Thou shall not murder" not "Thou shall not kill".    Ponder the difference and rethink your argument.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 27 May 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

No, I am confusing Good Works with acts of service...... again semantics.

To me when we ephasize the actual keeping of commandments we can be motivated by many possible things.   I equate Good works with doing Christlike acts of service.  I see keeping the commandments as either an inward desire to be obedient or other possible negative reasons
Obedience is a inward trait that expresses itself outwardly,  Keeping the commandments is an outward expression that may or may not reflect the inner heart.  One can keep the commandments out of pride, for a reward,  

One can fail to keep the commandments and still have a heart that is right with God.  Nephi broke the commandment  "Thou Shalt Not kill"  in order to keep another commandment of God.   In your world of having to keep all the commandments, Nephi  would be in a lose/lose situation.  The gospel sometimes forces us to break some commandments in order to keep others.  I can not keep all the commandments (me personally, I do not keep them all and will never claim to)..... impossible.  By joining the church, I did not "honor my father and mother" and yet I sought a higher law.

The outward actions we take are not black and white but the inward Broken heart and contrite spirit are.  The gospel is a inward journey and one in which we are either moving towards God or away.  I do not keep all the commandments, and neither did Nephi (shalt not kill), Moses (shalt not kill), Joseph Smith (shalt not lie - polygamy), ect... and yet these three did not seem to see this as sin where repentance was needed.  

In order for all of us to grow in faith we have to move past a black and white world where one must keep the commandments perfectly or find himself outside the kingdom.  I am called to do what I can (Repent, have faith, keep trying) and God then does what he can (transform our nature and make us like him through his grace)  and this occurs over a lifetime and into eternity.

That is a distraction and a red herring. If somebody is keeping the Commandments, then he is keeping the commandments, and it is not anybody's business to sit in judgements on his "motives" for doing so. That is between him and his God. When I go for a temple recommend interview with my bishop, he does not ask questions about my "motives" for keeping the commandments; but whether I am in fact keeping them or not. When he asks me if I am keeping the Word of Wisdom for example, or paying my tithing, and I say yes, that is all he is interested in. He doesn't ask me what are my "motives" for keeping the Word of Wisdom, or paying my tithing. So the question you are raising is basically a non-issue. If somebody is keeping the commandments "not to kill, steal, commit adultery, bear false witness etc.," then he is indeed keeping the commandments, regardless of what his "motives" might be, and the law can have no hold upon him. What is in his heart is between him and his God. It is not our business to probe into what is in his heart.

Edited by zerinus, 29 May 2012 - 01:07 AM.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 27 May 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

One can fail to keep the commandments and still have a heart that is right with God. Nephi broke the commandment "Thou Shalt Not kill" in order to keep another commandment of God. In your world of having to keep all the commandments, Nephi  would be in a lose/lose situation. . . .

That is another false dichotomy and distraction. The commandment of the Lord to Nephi at that time was to kill Laban, which he obeyed faithfully. There was no "conflicting commandments".

[DBMormon]

Works

So what is the purpose and value of Works within the plan of salvation.

Now while I seem to be writing off our works at times, I implore this is not the case. James says several times that Faith without Works is dead and that Rather than showing your faith without works it is better to show faith by one’s works. Paul was adamant that works not be used to boast of one’s “earning” salvation, but we certainly can understand the value of works being an outward expression of one’s inner commitment to follow the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words if one loves the Savior and truly wants to follow him his actions will change as his heart does. Faith without works to follow it, shows that perhaps there really isn’t a living faith there to begin with.

Now we must be careful, as God judges and determines individually with each of us what amount of progress spiritually is real and valid and how that real faith might express itself. I know members who on outward appearance are the least active members of the ward, they struggle in sin, and they seem to be stuck in the mud in regards to progress. Yet as Bishop I have had the spirit bear sweet witness that these specific individuals were saved by grace. I have worked with other members who seem to be doing everything right and yet the spirit of discernment indicated that their living testimony of Christ was on unsafe ground. Again it is up to God to judge that final judgment and for each of us to be self aware of where we are at.  But Elder Hallstrom recently taught in a Conference talk that one can be active in the church without being active in the gospel.  Alma asked the people of Zarahemla if at one time in their life they had felt to sing the song of redeeming love, and if they did, do they still feel so now(Alma 5:26)?

We each must be introspective on a regular basis. We should examine our lives and see if God is still adding grace for grace in our life. We can better understand James sermon within this paradigm. We can see that while many will claim to have faith but do nothing with it, it is those whose faith and love of God drives them to service in his name whose faith is real in living within them. In other words those who have drunk of the Living Water are more prone to be good home and visiting teachers, pay a full tithing, and magnify callings. They are more likely to serve their neighbor, give generous fast offerings, and love others with Christlike love. The works are not the means to Salvation's end, but they do evidence the saving grace of Christ and active faith within ourselves. Moroni 7:15-16 explains that the way to judge is to recognize whatever brings us closer to Christ is of God and what ever takes us away from Christ is of the Devil. The Savior himself was the ultimate worker of righteousness and how can emulating his life of service and sacrifice be a bad thing. Moroni 10:32-33 again reminds us that as we go through the process of putting off all ungodliness we shall move forward in the sanctification process and become Perfect in Christ.

Edited by reelmormon, 29 May 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[DBMormon]

Enduring to the End

As Alma pointed out we need to be continually asking ourselves if we are currently in a state of grace. If we feel the redeeming love of Christ. Are we still pointed towards him and heading in the direction of God and his son. Some may wonder why Salvation can't be a specific moment or think after that saving experience that nothing more is required. Some feel a simple confession with their lips and they are saved. Some in the church consider it good enough to have felt the added spiritual strength received from grace and do not look to keep that with them to nourish it. Alma chapter 32 plainly teaches us about how we are to grow our faith. How we need to progress from fruit bearing truth to fruit bearing truth growing in faith and I would add grace. The gospel of John 1:16, D&C 93:12-13, and Helaman 12:24 all teach Grace for Grace or Grace added to Grace as we progress towards the Son of God. But if we are not careful we can fall from Grace as well. Just as it can be added upon it can be removed portion by portion as well.

D&C 20:32 warns us of living in such a way as to fall from grace. If we are to be raised in a Celestial Glory, with Celestial Body, found worthy to be joint heirs with Christ, then we will need to set our hearts continually upon the Savior and the pure doctrine of Christ. Remember Faith is a continual process, Repentance is a continual process, Baptism is renewed each week, and We must daily live worthy of the holy spirit. The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are things that must be a continuing part of our lives by nature. In Lehi's vision there were many who made it to the fruit, they had even partaken of it; then turning towards the great and spacious building, they were ashamed and went into forbidden paths and were lost (1^st Nephi 8:28).

[DBMormon]

I was using an older copy of this written down Doctrine of Christ so here should be a better description of the Law of the gospel section.




While prophets warn us of trying to earn Salvation by the keeping the laws and commandments perfectly, we certainly should try to choose the right and set these standards as a goal.  Once we see that we can not be saved by the Law, we then need to point ourselves back towards Christ and ask him and the Father what it is that saves us.  Once we realize that what saves us is Christ's atonement and our utilizing it by uniting with Christ in trying with all our might, mind, and strength to become like him

The Third Article of Faith says, “Through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel”.  One might pick the word obedience out of the statement and begin to dwell too heavily on it.  It is not obedience for the sake of Obedience.  It is obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel.  Second it is through the atonement of Christ we are saved.  “Through” implies it is the vehicle or mode by which we get, from trying to keep the laws and ordinances of the gospel, to Exaltation with Heavenly Father.  The atonement provides the verb or “action” in the process.  So what are these laws and ordinances we need to obey?

The answer is found in the very next article of faith. “The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are: first,Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion; fourth, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost”.  While the word laws is exchanged for principles it is indeed these principles and ordinances  that Lead us to the Atonement and our Salvation.  Remember these are the first principles and ordinances.   In fact the beginning words of the 4th article of faith were changed in the mid 1800's after the Lord revealed other saving ordinances and in the  original wording the 4th Article of Faith said “We believe that these are 1st, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2nd, Repentance; 3rd, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.”    The “These are” refers to the 3rd article of Faith's Principles and ordinances.  If you read the original wording this becomes obvious. Other saving ordinances such as the endowment and sealing would be included in the things we need to be obedient to in order to access the atonement.  Nephi leaves room for these in  chapter 32 verse 6 where he says there are other parts of the Doctrine of Crist that may bee added after Christ comes in the flesh.

So again what are they?  They are  Faith,  Repentance, and receiving saving ordinances .  I would add here as it will become plain the final unmentioned step of enduring to the end.  If we can truly get this process down herein we are told is Salvation through the Atonement.  We may think that Family History is the pure doctrine of Christ or part of it, or that Tithing or the Word of Wisdom is included in the pure doctrine of Christ, but it is not.  That Home Teaching is truly a part of the pure doctrine of Christ but again it is not.  These in and of themselves are just more rules and commandments and laws designed to assist us in becoming more like the Son of God and to help us serve others in the same cause.  

The “true and only” doctrine of Christ according to Nephi here is to enter the strait and narrow path (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost) and endure to the end “Pressing Forward with Steadfastness”(2nd Nephi 31: 19-21).  To see this from another angle we might ask, Can a Buddhist make it back to the Celestial kingdom without ever having paid tithing in this life or the next?  Can a Hindu get back to Heavenly Father without doing Home Teaching or Visiting Teaching in this life or the next?  Can an Evangelical Christian get back to Heavenly Father without having done their four generation chart?  To all of these questions is a resounding, Yes!  They will be unable to get back  though, if at some point in this life or the next they do not exercise faith, repent of their sins, receive and accept saving ordinances, and endure to the end.  Sanctified or spiritually changed at some point along the way, eventually becoming truly perfect.  The pure doctrine of Christ is defined as the necessary steps for his children to become like him so that they might enter back into his presence.   All will have to in this life or the next be obedient to these principles and ordinances.  I would remind us in the church that this is not reason to disregard the other principles like tithing or family history.  That to truly be like God and his Son, we must try to keep all that he has given us to do.  

there is some confusion at this point because on one hand we are saying that works do not save us and yet we are saying they are at least in regards to some essential or necessary for our exaltation.  The difference is monumental when you clearly understand the pure doctrine of Christ.  There are two ways to present the gospel.  One is that we teach people that outward expressions of their faith is what counts in Heavenly Father's eyes.  Keep the commandments, be a 100% Home/Visiting Teacher, receive all the ordianances, go to all your meetings, pay a full tithe, keep the word of wisdom, magnify your callings, and serve a mission; then if you do all this you will have been considered faithful and upon death enter back into the presence of Heavenly Father having done what is required of you.




That sounds great on the surface except it fails for two reasons.  The majority of good faithful members of the church will notice they fall short of this works righteousness and see the self imposed bar of perfection as impossible.  They will become discouraged and lose hope.  The second problem is that any member who feels they have achieved this perfection of works may still find themselves having fallen short of what it is that God is really asking for.  

While God does give us rules, laws, commandments, assignments, stewardships, ect...; what he really wants is us to look to Christ and become like him.  He wants us spiritually changed.  He wants us perfect.  Helaman 3:35 states, “Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God”.  This Mighty Change we seek comes from bending our will to the will of the Father.  It comes from yielding our heart to him.  It comes from his gift of grace being given to us enabling us to do way more then we could on our own, including becoming like Christ and becoming perfect.  It is an inward change that will reflect itself in outward action and expression.  One who has had this spiritual change will undoubtedly move forward in progression continually adapting his life to what God requires of him.  




There is no moment in time in this life when we have to have this all thing down perfectly or we have failed.  We must see the plan of redemption as a process.  This refiner's fire will take time.  There will be times when we fall down and mess up.  We must “press forward” with “steadfastness” until some future day when we shall be perfect.  We must push forward everyday.  We must keep getting up and dusting ourselves off.  We must keep trying.  We must see the things he requires of us an opportunity to become more like him.  He gives us things to do to help us in our change to be like him.  So while God requires faith, repentance, and saving ordinances they are not required as a means to an end with the end being Salvation.   The yielding of our hearts to him is the means to Salvation with works of Righteousness being the obvious expression of that inward change.  How much do we love him?  How much faith will we have in him?  How much will we trust in him?  Will we continue to be “steadfast “ the further we “press forward”?   He also uses works to place us in situations where we can learn and grow spiritually.

We will go into each of these in more depth but we must at this juncture see the importance on getting on this path, joining in the yoke with Christ.  This is more than going to Church.  It is more than agreeing to join the church because of some pretty girl or your friend in school.  It is more than staying active because of family pressure or risk of letting others down.  We have now seen that we can not get back to Heavenly Father through our own actions, so now it is time to team up with “him who is mighty to save”.  This inner progression is not a one time thing.  Your Faith will be required everyday.  Your time spent repenting will need to be a regular occurrence, the attitude or repentance will need to be a constant feeling within you.  You will daily need to come to terms with the realization of just how imperfect you are and how short you fall.  

The ordinances of the gospel are also lifelong pursuits.  While you are baptized only once, you will be renewing that covenant each week as you partake of the sacrament.  In essence you will be re-baptized each week in your inner commitment to once again try to keep the commandments and take his name upon you; and he will again promise his spirit to be with you as you try.  While only confirmed once, the spirit will leave you if you do not make a constant effort to be clean and repent as needed to have his constant companionship.  While we go to the temple once to receive ordinances for ourselves we go back over and over again to receive these ordinances for others.  The final Step, enduring to the end is just as it says.  It is to endure all that life throws at you remaining strong in your faith, continually going through the refinement process becoming more and more like Christ progressing toward perfection.

[followerofemmanuel]

reelmormon, on 29 May 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

I was using an older copy of this written down Doctrine of Christ so here should be a better description of the Law of the gospel section.

While prophets warn us of trying to earn Salvation by the keeping the laws and commandments perfectly, we certainly should try to choose the right and set these standards as a goal.  Once we see that we can not be saved by the Law, we then need to point ourselves back towards Christ and ask him and the Father what it is that saves us.  Once we realize that what saves us is Christ's atonement and our utilizing it by uniting with Christ in trying with all our might, mind, and strength to become like him

The Third Article of Faith says, “Through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel”.  One might pick the word obedience out of the statement and begin to dwell too heavily on it.  It is not obedience for the sake of Obedience.  It is obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel.  Second it is through the atonement of Christ we are saved.  “Through” implies it is the vehicle or mode by which we get, from trying to keep the laws and ordinances of the gospel, to Exaltation with Heavenly Father.  The atonement provides the verb or “action” in the process.  So what are these laws and ordinances we need to obey?

The answer is found in the very next article of faith. “The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are: first,Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion; fourth, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost”.  While the word laws is exchanged for principles it is indeed these principles and ordinances  that Lead us to the Atonement and our Salvation.  Remember these are the first principles and ordinances.   In fact the beginning words of the 4th article of faith were changed in the mid 1800's after the Lord revealed other saving ordinances and in the  original wording the 4th Article of Faith said “We believe that these are 1st, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2nd, Repentance; 3rd, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.” The “These are” refers to the 3rd article of Faith's Principles and ordinances.  If you read the original wording this becomes obvious. Other saving ordinances such as the endowment and sealing would be included in the things we need to be obedient to in order to access the atonement.  Nephi leaves room for these in  chapter 32 verse 6 where he says there are other parts of the Doctrine of Crist that may bee added after Christ comes in the flesh.

So again what are they?  They are  Faith,  Repentance, and receiving saving ordinances .  I would add here as it will become plain the final unmentioned step of enduring to the end.  If we can truly get this process down herein we are told is Salvation through the Atonement.  We may think that Family History is the pure doctrine of Christ or part of it, or that Tithing or the Word of Wisdom is included in the pure doctrine of Christ, but it is not.  That Home Teaching is truly a part of the pure doctrine of Christ but again it is not.  These in and of themselves are just more rules and commandments and laws designed to assist us in becoming more like the Son of God and to help us serve others in the same cause.  

The “true and only” doctrine of Christ according to Nephi here is to enter the strait and narrow path (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost) and endure to the end “Pressing Forward with Steadfastness”(2nd Nephi 31: 19-21).  To see this from another angle we might ask, Can a Buddhist make it back to the Celestial kingdom without ever having paid tithing in this life or the next?  Can a Hindu get back to Heavenly Father without doing Home Teaching or Visiting Teaching in this life or the next?  Can an Evangelical Christian get back to Heavenly Father without having done their four generation chart?  To all of these questions is a resounding, Yes!  They will be unable to get back  though, if at some point in this life or the next they do not exercise faith, repent of their sins, receive and accept saving ordinances, and endure to the end.  Sanctified or spiritually changed at some point along the way, eventually becoming truly perfect.  The pure doctrine of Christ is defined as the necessary steps for his children to become like him so that they might enter back into his presence.   All will have to in this life or the next be obedient to these principles and ordinances.  I would remind us in the church that this is not reason to disregard the other principles like tithing or family history.  That to truly be like God and his Son, we must try to keep all that he has given us to do.  

there is some confusion at this point because on one hand we are saying that works do not save us and yet we are saying they are at least in regards to some essential or necessary for our exaltation.  The difference is monumental when you clearly understand the pure doctrine of Christ.  There are two ways to present the gospel.  One is that we teach people that outward expressions of their faith is what counts in Heavenly Father's eyes.  Keep the commandments, be a 100% Home/Visiting Teacher, receive all the ordianances, go to all your meetings, pay a full tithe, keep the word of wisdom, magnify your callings, and serve a mission; then if you do all this you will have been considered faithful and upon death enter back into the presence of Heavenly Father having done what is required of you.

That sounds great on the surface except it fails for two reasons.  The majority of good faithful members of the church will notice they fall short of this works righteousness and see the self imposed bar of perfection as impossible.  They will become discouraged and lose hope.  The second problem is that any member who feels they have achieved this perfection of works may still find themselves having fallen short of what it is that God is really asking for.  

While God does give us rules, laws, commandments, assignments, stewardships, ect...; what he really wants is us to look to Christ and become like him.  He wants us spiritually changed.  He wants us perfect.  Helaman 3:35 states, “Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God”.  This Mighty Change we seek comes from bending our will to the will of the Father.  It comes from yielding our heart to him.  It comes from his gift of grace being given to us enabling us to do way more then we could on our own, including becoming like Christ and becoming perfect.  It is an inward change that will reflect itself in outward action and expression.  One who has had this spiritual change will undoubtedly move forward in progression continually adapting his life to what God requires of him.  

There is no moment in time in this life when we have to have this all thing down perfectly or we have failed.  We must see the plan of redemption as a process.  This refiner's fire will take time.  There will be times when we fall down and mess up.  We must “press forward” with “steadfastness” until some future day when we shall be perfect.  We must push forward everyday.  We must keep getting up and dusting ourselves off.  We must keep trying.  We must see the things he requires of us an opportunity to become more like him.  He gives us things to do to help us in our change to be like him.  So while God requires faith, repentance, and saving ordinances they are not required as a means to an end with the end being Salvation.   The yielding of our hearts to him is the means to Salvation with works of Righteousness being the obvious expression of that inward change.  How much do we love him?  How much faith will we have in him?  How much will we trust in him?  Will we continue to be “steadfast “ the further we “press forward”?   He also uses works to place us in situations where we can learn and grow spiritually.

We will go into each of these in more depth but we must at this juncture see the importance on getting on this path, joining in the yoke with Christ.  This is more than going to Church.  It is more than agreeing to join the church because of some pretty girl or your friend in school.  It is more than staying active because of family pressure or risk of letting others down.  We have now seen that we can not get back to Heavenly Father through our own actions, so now it is time to team up with “him who is mighty to save”.  This inner progression is not a one time thing.  Your Faith will be required everyday.  Your time spent repenting will need to be a regular occurrence, the attitude or repentance will need to be a constant feeling within you.  You will daily need to come to terms with the realization of just how imperfect you are and how short you fall.  

The ordinances of the gospel are also lifelong pursuits.  While you are baptized only once, you will be renewing that covenant each week as you partake of the sacrament.  In essence you will be re-baptized each week in your inner commitment to once again try to keep the commandments and take his name upon you; and he will again promise his spirit to be with you as you try.  While only confirmed once, the spirit will leave you if you do not make a constant effort to be clean and repent as needed to have his constant companionship.  While we go to the temple once to receive ordinances for ourselves we go back over and over again to receive these ordinances for others.  The final Step, enduring to the end is just as it says.  It is to endure all that life throws at you remaining strong in your faith, continually going through the refinement process becoming more and more like Christ progressing toward perfection.

More questions for you friend (If that is ok).  I really appreciate many of the thoughts you have shared. Something that caught my attention in your post is when you wrote, "While only confirmed once, the spirit will leave you if you do not make a constant effort to be clean and repent as needed to have his constant companionship".

It is impossible for me not to fall short in the things I am to do or should not do? It feels like this is where the ephasis of works comes in again, on what I can do vs God grace in and through me.  But I don't know how I could ever measure up.  How would I know if what I am doing is ever enough, so that the spirit won't leave me?  What does this look like for you?  

I understand from the Bible that we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit but I understood that would mean to try to live uprightly but not so much out of fear, but rather out of respect, obedience and love for God.  Some of the scriptures that have shaped my understanding are below.  What Doctrine do you have that has brought you to your understanding?What do you do to prevent the spirit from leaving you? Thanks again for your willingness to share your perspectives.

In Ephesians 4:30-32 the Bible states, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."

Romans 8:26
New International Version (NIV)
²⁶ In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

Ephesians 1:13-14
¹³ And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,  ¹⁴ who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Romans 8:8-17
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,  ² because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you^[a] free from the law of sin and death. ³ For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,^[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.^[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.⁹ You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life^[d] because of righteousness. ¹¹ And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of^[e] his Spirit who lives in you. ¹² Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.  ¹³ For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. ¹⁴ For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.  ¹⁵ The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.^[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,^[g] Father.”  ¹⁶ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.  ¹⁷ Now if we are children, then we are heirs —heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Edited by followerofemmanuel, 30 May 2012 - 08:34 PM.