not good compared to choosing to be humble but better then not being humble
what about ether 12:27?
You can think of it in terms of chastisement and repentanc. There are many passages of scripture which teach that God chastens people in order to cause them to repent. They also teach that God chastens them because He loves them, and wants them to repent. Chastisement does not force people to repent. There are some who will never repent, no matter how much they are csastened. Giving people weaknesses that they may be humble means more or less the same thing as chastening them that they might repent. It is the same doctrine, but expressed in different words.
You can search and search and maybe find one or two cherry picked scriptures that might on a certain cast make it look like God forces people to be humble, but you have to ignore a vast message of the Gospel if you do that.
God never forces anything, on that we agree. Agency is always in the picture. If he forced it, everyone would be humble. But is is apparhent that he gives us weakness and shows us that weakness in hopes of humbling us. Humility is a Christlike trait, one in which God gives us trials and experiences to help us develop. Helaman 3:35 also tells us this humility leads us to yield our hearts to GOD and become sanctified or enjoy the mighty change Alma ch 5 speaks of.
How do you make sense of the scriptures in Alma 32 where either we can be humble or God will compel us to be humble?
Pres. Benson's "14 Fundamentals in following the Prophet" restates this truth and helps one understand what is expected. Just another form of inviting His children to come back to Him. MW
We say in speaking of Christ that he fulfilled the law. Do we ever consider what that means? In part at least, it means he kept the Law of Moses, every jot and tittle. He did it. He was perfect. Why is that such a big deal?
The purpose of the law was natural to Him. He personified the law. He showed what the law was intended to accomplish. He wants us to be like Him. If we are willing to keep the law, and if we understand its purpose, even in our weakness, we will become more and more like Him. Eventually, we need the law to become natural to us, otherwise, keeping the law is nothing more than checking things off a list, which, unfortunately, is how too many view keeping the commandments. This is why too many get depressed or give up. If we allow the law to accomplish its purpose, its precepts become part of us and keeping the law is no longer a burden or difficult but it is what we naturally do. We are no longer keeping the law, we are just living our lives.
Quote
You see, each of us must be justified in order to be resurrected and enter back into the presence of the Father and to be judged. To be justified is to be pardoned or found not guilty of your actions.
Actually, I would say that to be justified is to be found innocent, rather than "not guilty". I think this is an important distinction. No matter what we do, we will always be guilty of our bad choices, but, as the atonement pays the penalty of our guilt, we can be declared innocent as our hearts are turned from those bad choices. We are innocent because we have learned to no longer desire to make those choices, and since the penalty has been paid, we can be trusted and are no longer accountable. We become like little children or, in other words, we become innocent.
Quote
There are two ways within Mainstream Christianity and a third way that the restored gospel and continuing revelation have added that one can and will be justified. Let’s only talk about the first here. We can keep the Law perfectly. God gave rules.
The only way that would be possible is if it was already our nature to be what the law was designed to teach us.
Quote
While the Ten commandments may be most recognized, as they were directly given from God to Moses, there are approximately 612 laws in the Law of Moses. God’s directions were pretty simple. Keep the 612 laws contained in the Law of Moses and you would enter back into the presence of your Heavenly Father. On the outside that sounds simple enough. Simply get up every day and be perfect in those 612 things. As you can guess the problem arises in the application stage of this test. It’s impossible. Even if one is only asked to keep the directly given Ten Commandments, this endeavor would still be impossible. There is none righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10). We all sin.
The Israelites were not expected to keep the law perfectly. Through sacrifice, an atonement was made to cover their unintentional sin. The law was harsh on willful sin and rebellion. Anyone who thinks they can earn their way to heaven by perfectly keeping the commandments is setting themselves up to be very unhappy.
Quote
One of the things Latter-Day Saints are accused of often is that we are trying to earn our way to heaven or earn our salvation by doing good works. This sterotype can at least in part be blamed on ourselves. In the church it doesn't take long to find a member who holds this belief. We have to be careful that we aren’t trying to earn our way to Heaven by our works. That we are not measuring our good works as having merit in providing our salvation. The scriptures say if we are leaning on the Law of Moses or the Ten Commandments to save us then we will find ourselves on the wrong side of the judgment (Galatians 5:4).
I am trying to be a good gardener. If I make a checklist of things to do in order to grow something, if I follow that check list perfectly, I can grow successful plants. However, that does not make me a gardener, nor does it force me to like gardening. If I want to be a true gardener, I have to learn what the checklist is trying to teach me and through practice, hopefully, I will be able to, one day, grow a complete garden without a checklist and enjoy, not only the process, but the eventual fruit. Right now, it is a confusing and tedious chore.
Quote
If you take pride in being almost perfect, your missing the point. If you look at others and measure your righteousness against theirs, your missing the boat. Don’t get me wrong your righteousness is required but not as merits towards your redemption (JST Romans 4:2).
Righteousness is not about being perfect at keeping commandments. To be righteous, literally means to be rendered innocent. We are only rendered innocent through repentance and the atonement. If we are consistent and sincere in our repentance, we are justified and can stand before Christ, innocent.
Quote
The question that we would be best to ponder on is this – Why did God give us a Law knowing that we would inevitably fail at it.
Because it is not necessary to keep all the commandments perfectly. He wants us to learn to become something, no matter how many times we screw up.
Quote
He could have just as easily given us a simple law.
No, I don't think He could have.
Quote
Perhaps just blink our eyes twice a week and blow bubbles once a year.
I suppose, if one were to think that heaven is just some exclusive club with an odd list of requirements for membership, this would be possible.
Quote
If so Free Will would still be in place and many more of God’s children would make it back on the Law alone.
Then what would be the point? What did they learn? More importantly, what did they become?
Quote
Do we ever consider that Heavenly Father doesn’t intend for us to be perfect in the Law,
Yes
Quote
that indeed he made the Law impossible on purpose.
No
Quote
In fact 2nd Nephi 2:5 tells us that the Law was created in part so that we may know good from evil and that if our focus is on keeping the Law or Rules then we shall be miserable and cut off. The Law was given for a 2nd reason as well. We are taught in the scriptures that the Law is a schoolmaster designed to point us to Christ (Galatians 3:22-25) The Law is designed to push us in the direction of having faith in and following the Savior. Keeping the law perfectly was created to be impossible for a reason. We are supposed to fall short. Not only do we each fall short, but we are to take notice of it. We are to recognize the great Gulf that stands between us and the Glory that awaits us. Only by seeing how short we fall, according to the Law, are we willing admit we can not do it on our own and then humbly turn ourselves towards the Savior and look to him. I believe the Law is designed by nature to help us see our weaknesses so that we may be humble (Ether 12:27)
I think you are making it more complicated than it needs to be. I am sure that God would be perfectly happy if Chirst-like attributes came naturally to us. He doesn't need to intentionally knock us down in order to show us we can't do it on our own. We learn by doing. Making mistakes is part of the process of learning. If we are willing to learn and are trying to learn, I think God will be patient with us for as long as it takes for us to become what He wants. Of course we can't do it alone, but we can't do it without trying either. Just as thinking we can earn our salvation by perfect obedience is false doctrine, so is believing that we can be saved simply by saying we believe in Jesus. We are saved by grace. Grace comes by covenant. Obedience is the process of keeping our covenants and being taught to become like Christ.
Do you as viewers see the law as something we have to keep (expending our best efforts and doing all we can do).
No I see it as the process by which we learn
Quote
That we have to prove ourselves by our obedience to the commandments.
Obedience is how we show our willingness to keep our covenants. Technically, we were granted salvation when we enter into our covenants with Christ. Obedience, coupled with repentance is enduring to the end
Quote
That our obedience and exactness has merit in our salvation.
They have merit in proving our willingness to keep our covenants, but our salvation comes through Christ.
Quote
Or do you see the law as a designed to make us fail, exposing our weakness, humbling us, and turning us to christ.
No. No one will attempt to keep the commandments unless he has already turned to Christ. We come to Christ because He has already taught us that we can't do it alone and that He wants to help us along the way. You seem to be saying that commandments are like a man throwing someone into a pit that is impossible to climb out of and then throwing them some climbing gear and an instruction manual on rock climbing (even though they will not be sufficient, even if mastered) and sitting back and waiting for the person to give up and cry for help. I see it different. I view it as a man taking someone to the base of of the cliff and explaining that the climb will be impossible alone, but he will guarantee his safe arrival at the top if he will allow him to to teach him and help him along the way. Once that agreement is made, the safe arrival is assured, but the climbing must still be done.
Quote
Then using his grace or enabling power allowing one to be changed or transformed by God to with Christ's assistance be able to edge closer to being Christlike?
I have never been a fan of the term, "enabling power", although, I suppose, it is not too far off. Personally, I see grace coming at the beginning rather than in the middle or at the end. Grace is the guarantee that give us the confidence to try. Because of His grace, our efforts, despite our weakness, will be sufficient to accomplish His purposes.
Do you as viewers see the law as something we have to keep (expending our best efforts and doing all we can do). That we have to prove ourselves by our obedience to the commandments. That our obedience and exactness has merit in our salvation. Or do you see the law as a designed to make us fail, exposing our weakness, humbling us, and turning us to christ. Then using his grace or enabling power allowing one to be changed or transformed by God to with Christ's assistance be able to edge closer to being Christlike?
Do you as viewers see the law as something we have to keep (expending our best efforts and doing all we can do) [Yes, “…keep my commandments…”]. That we have to prove ourselves by our obedience to the commandments [Yes, “and we will prove them herewith..”]. That our obedience and exactness has merit in our salvation [Yes, “Be ye perfect…”]. Or do you see the law as a designed to make us fail, exposing our weakness, humbling us, and turning us to Christ [Yes, it does serve this purpose when we respond to it in this fashion]. Then using his grace or enabling power allowing one to be changed or transformed by God to with Christ's assistance be able to edge closer to being Christlike [Yes, His grace, our repentance and the resulting transformation follow the eternal law of becoming perfect]?
By falling short of the law and recognizing we are sinners, we must come to the realization that we have weaknesses that can not be overcome by our own strength and resolve. Ether 12:27 tells us that our weakness comes from Heavenly Father again supporting God’s intention for us to see ourselves as fallen. He gave us the struggles. Whether they be Word of Wisdom, Tithing, Home Teaching, Pornography, lack of Kindness, Gossip, or any other shortcoming; we must come to a realization that it was God who placed them there to begin with.
Why would he do that? What does seeing one’s own flaws do for us. Ether 12:27 continues to tell us that Heavenly Father gave us this weakness to humble us. It is in the recognizing of our weakness that we begin to allow Christ to begin to work a Mighty Change within us (D&C 135:5 notice it is because Joseph saw his weakness). This humility must be sincere and deeply felt (D&C 67:10) other wise we are simply going through the motions and fooling ourselves. Pride is the number one deterrent preventing us from salvation. Pride keeps us from repenting, from confessing, from acknowledging God’s superiority and our inferiority without him. For God to teach us, to help us progress, he needs us humble.
We are taught that weakness is given so that we might look to God and his Grace as the true source of our salvation (Jacob 4:7). The only way we will truly turn to the Plan of Redemption is through being humble or being humbled. There is a difference. Some do choose to humble themselves, and the Lord is grateful for those who do not need to be compelled (Alma 32:14). Alma proceeds to tells us the rest of the way through the chapter the progression that follows through the beginning step of humility. Each of us has a choice, we can choose to be humble and the plan of Happiness will be opened to us, or we can be compelled to be humble and given a chance to choose to look to Christ and His gospel.
So often we go through life thinking we caused our flaws and we have to fix them on our own. Both of these assumptions are incorrect. Ether 12:27 tells us not only does God give the weaknesses out he also has the ability to make them our greatest strengths. I can testify of this. In any particular flaw where I have been humble enough to look solely to God’s plan to fix the weakness, he has fixed it. Not me, not my effort, not my work or by my own merit; but through Christ. God looks to bless us in spite our our flaws and weakness not because of them (D&C38:14). Why? Because he loves us and is bound to do so. We are his children, his sons and daughters. Why wouldn’t a heavenly parent want to bless his children? He doesn’t do this at no cost though we must be humble before he can show us the way (D&C 5:24).
What is this way he will show us? It is his plan and it begins at the strait and narrow Gate. It leads to the first principles and ordinances of the gospel! Directly to Faith and Repentance if we so choose (Alma 32:13). God doesn’t humble us just so we can see we are nothing. He humbles us so that we will let go of pride which leads one to look to oneself for all good things and instead turn to Christ and rely wholly upon him. God, this whole time, is simply trying to get us to look to his son, the Savior of the world. That has been his plan since the worlds were created. All things point to Christ. It is at this segue that the Holy Ghost enters in with greater force and begins to help us through the gate (Alma 13:28) The spirit works through humility and not pride. Many of the steps in the gospel are designed to humble us. Repentance is humbling, subjecting oneself to baptism is humbling, Marriage is humbling, parenting is humbling. Life is designed to humble us. Humility is the one of the main ingredients in true change.
By falling short of the law and recognizing we are sinners, we must come to the realization that we have weaknesses that can not be overcome by our own strength and resolve. Ether 12:27 tells us that our weakness comes from Heavenly Father again supporting God’s intention for us to see ourselves as fallen. He gave us the struggles. Whether they be Word of Wisdom, Tithing, Home Teaching, Pornography, lack of Kindness, Gossip, or any other shortcoming; we must come to a realization that it was God who placed them there to begin with.
<snip>
The "weakness" referred to in Ether 12 is not a disposition to commit sin. God never imparts to people a disposition to commit sin. In the case of Moroni, for example, his "weakness" was his inability to write powerfully, as the Brother of Jared apparently was able to do. That was not a "sin," any more than not being able to lift a 100lb weight is a sin. The "weaknesses" God gives to people in order to keep them humble is never a disposition to sin. And in any case, the weakness is not given, or is lifted when one is humble, or learns to become humble.
I agree it is a fine line... but I disagree that anything less then all we can do or not expending our best effort will place us in something less then the celestial Kingdom. I agree we are not saved by faith alone. But God's reason for asking so much of us is not to merit our exhaltation but to push us to be better, to be Christlike.
I know some here think they do all they can do. But in reality, no one does that. No one does every single thing they can do, no one expends their very best efforts ...... folks here can claim it but they don't. So with that said 99.999% of people who have ever lived will be unable to claim celestial glory becasue they have not expended their best efforts (Expending best efforts come from Elder McConkie's LDS bible dictionary definition of Grace and of course the all we can do = 2nd nephi 25:23)
The bible dictionary definition is wrong. Grace is not available only after we expend our best efforts. That incorrect definiton is based on a misunderstanding of 2nd Nephi's 25:23 which when understood properly states that "despite or nevertheless or not withsatnding all we can do, it is by Grace we are saved"
Quote
Zerinus
For some the weakness is sin, see Pauls comments in 2nd Cor 12:9-15. When says "
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
He says he doesn't mind being told when he has made a mistake because he is trying to follow the Savior and is covered by grace.
Other examples - in the LDS Addiction and recovery manual step one says - "Step 1
Admit that you, of yourself, are powerless to overcome your addictions and that your life has
become unmanageable."
so unable to control the sin of alcoholism or pornography, or any other addiction has at the least BECOME a sin one can not control on his own with out help. The divine enabling power of Christ's Grace
Many have an easy time with these things, others have a struggle within themselves to put them away. We are all not on a fair playing ground and God knows that for he placed within each of us different weaknesses
Nephi for instance says "I am encompassed about, because of the temptations
and the sins which do so easily beset me.
And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth
because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom
I have trusted."
Would we say Nephi is unworthy of the Celestial Kindom becasue he was easily beset with sins? No... neither did he, he knew in whom he trusted.
I appreciate both of your comments though and completely understand that one can see the gospel through a "works righteousness salvation" yet I read the scriptures and I don't see that at all.
I see a God who demands our best effort, demands we become perfect, demands we keep all the rules.... but not because they have merit, but rather like a parent he is pushing us to be our best. That said, sitting on the sideline and confessing him will not get us there. He will not just beat us with a few stripes and let us in. I will never be found testifying of a faith alone salvation. We need to be trying, we need to turn our hearts towards him, we must see the perfection an rule keeping as a standard that when we fall short we repent, dust ourselves off and press forward again. But even if one is beset so easliy with sin such as nephi, God's grace will make his weaknesses into strengths. God sees in "Nephi" one who has a broken heart and contrite spirit, one who keeps trying, one who is relying on Christ and his grace, one who repents, one willing to make covenants..... and because his grace is suffcient.... that is enough.
At it's root, the gospel is about one who stops trying to do it all on his on and humbly turns to Christ's whose grace works side by side with him slowly transforming him into one worthy of exhaltation. That process make take a lifetime or it may take a million years. but how long it takes means nothing as long as one has a broken hear, contrite spirit, and is willing to press forward with steadfastness as the journey gets harder and harder and more and more is expected of them.
"Obviously as the path of discipleship ascends, that trail gets ever more narrow until we come to that knee-buckling pinnacle of the sermon of which Elder Christofferson just spoke: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”13What was gentle in the lowlands of initial loyalty becomes deeply strenuous and very demanding at the summit of true discipleship" - Elder Holland
By falling short of the law and recognizing we are sinners, we must come to the realization that we have weaknesses that can not be overcome by our own strength and resolve. Ether 12:27 tells us that our weakness comes from Heavenly Father again supporting God’s intention for us to see ourselves as fallen. He gave us the struggles. Whether they be Word of Wisdom, Tithing, Home Teaching, Pornography, lack of Kindness, Gossip, or any other shortcoming; we must come to a realization that it was God who placed them there to begin with.
I have to disagree with this. I think that this passage of scripture is one of the most misunderstood among Latter-day Saints. Read the whole passage and see what Moroni is talking about. God gives us, "weakness", not "weaknesses". I don't believe that God gives a man the predisposition to view pornography or to be a drug addict or a murderer. Talk to anyone who has lived with addiction. Those addictions do not become strengths. One may be blessed to overcome an addiction, but, generally, he must be vigilant his entire life to avoid falling back into old habits. The verses in question do not speak of any kind of sin, they speak of humans, because of their weakness, not being able to do the work of the Lord as well as they would like to and fearing that, as a result, their efforts will fail. The Lord explains that He will bless their efforts, no matter how weak they are, so that they will have a powerful effect. He does not say that He will turn human weakness into human strength, He only says that, with His blessing, our weak efforts to serve Him will have a strong effect. When we recognize our human weakness, and seek the Lord's help, we can accomplish great things, even though our natural ability may not be equal to the task.
For some the weakness is sin, see Pauls comments in 2nd Cor 12:9-15.
<snip>
Those kinds of "weakness" are not God given. You are mixing unrelated doctrines here. There is a verse that says, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (John 8:34). Sinning brings one into bondage to sin. Drug and alcohol addiction, pornography addiction, are crude examples. Those kinds of "weakness" (if they can be called weaknesses) are not God given. They come as a result of our own sinning. When it says that God gives us "weaknesses" so we may be humble, those are not the kind of weaknesses it is talking about.
to some outside the church to drink is not a sin. They are not aware that it is wrong. yet still once they drink they are prone to alcoholism. I think weaknesses come in many forms.
Also what was your thoughts in regards to Nephi's allowing sins to so easily beset him... does that prevent him from Celestial kingdom.
"If we are to have this precious guidance, we must keep the commandments. President Woodruff taught: “The Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unholy tabernacle. If you would enjoy the full powers and gifts of your religion, you must be pure. If you are guilty of weakness, follies and sins, you must repent of them; that is, you must thoroughly forsake them." - Wilford Woodruff
http://www.lds.org/s.../grace?lang=eng The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27). <---- notice plural
I don't agree with your limiting weakness or weaknesses to health or physical limitations. Nephi while very frustrated with his sins... still trusted in God unto salvation. Paul was ok with approaches. We are each fallen and given to the natural man....
Let's take alcoholism for instance I am not saying God caused you to take that first drink, but some of us are suseptible to alcoholism and others are not. That weakness is godgiven. It wasn't developed by our choices. we were born with a suseptibility to alcoholism. Our choices perhaps put it into motion but did not casue one to be suseptible.
Another example that might illustrate my point. I have counseled someone who had a father who was very into pornography. It was all around this person as he grew up. He, while no choice of his own, grew up with seriously messed up perceptions and his own addictions to the stuff. Had Dad not had this around, this young man may have likely never experienced what he did. Now he has an addiction to the stuff. Do we say shame on him for chooseing it or do we teach that Christ can make his weaknesses strengths... which by the way he can and did. We don't want to say sin is ok.. I am not trying to say that. but rather that if we recognize we each have personally tailored trials and challenges that are made for us to help us each overcome our weakness or weaknesses and our tendencies towards certain sins is my and your weakness. Some have homosexual feelings, some depression, some gambling, some drugs, some pornography, some alcohol, sexual issues, ect...ect...ect..... each of us has individual weaknesess and at least in some of these they are not a choice. They are inborn weaknesses.
Does this take away agency.... no. We always have a choice and when we make the wrong choice willingly it is sin but for some of us the wrong choice is a lot less willingly then another person feelings on the same weakness.
Most of you would agree Homosexual feelings are not a choice for at least many who struggle. No their choosing to give in to them might be considered sin but would some of you agree the feelings themselves are god given... a weakness they have been given to overcome? sin is sin but are susceptibility to certain sins is our weakness and only the grace of God can transform us past these temptations to a perfect level of success
I like Nephi have no problem saying "I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me." because I too know in whom I trust
to some outside the church to drink is not a sin. They are not aware that it is wrong. yet still once they drink they are prone to alcoholism. I think weaknesses come in many forms.
Of course we all have our own weaknesses and are prone to sin. This just isn't what Ether 12 is referring to.
Quote
Also what was your thoughts in regards to Nephi's allowing sins to so easily beset him... does that prevent him from Celestial kingdom.
I don't know what this has to do with Ether 12. All of us sin, yet through repentance, we are justified and found clean. That is the Good News.
Quote
"If we are to have this precious guidance, we must keep the commandments. President Woodruff taught: “The Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unholy tabernacle. If you would enjoy the full powers and gifts of your religion, you must be pure. If you are guilty of weakness, follies and sins, you must repent of them; that is, you must thoroughly forsake them." - Wilford Woodruff
I agree with this, but, again, I fail to see what this has to do with Ether 12. I am assuming that you don't take Pres. Woodruff's quote to mean that, in order to have the Holy Ghost with us, we can never sin. If that were the case, Nephi would not have had the Holy Ghost with him.
Quote
http://www.lds.org/s.../grace?lang=eng
The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27). <---- notice plural
Do you notice that the word, "weaknesses" does not appear in Ether 12?
Quote
I don't agree with your limiting weakness or weaknesses to health or physical limitations.
I am not sure if you are responding to me or Zerinus. However, the weakness referred to by Moroni in Ether 12, is not sin. Read it in context and if you can find a reference equating weakness to sin, please point it out. That does not mean that sins are not weaknesses, they just are not what Moroni is referring to.
Quote
Nephi while very frustrated with his sins... still trusted in God unto salvation.
Do you feel that I have said anything to contradict this?
Quote
Paul was ok with approaches.
I think you mean "reproaches", which has nothing to do with sin.
Quote
We are each fallen and given to the natural man....
Let's take alcoholism for instance
I am not saying God caused you to take that first drink, but some of us are suseptible to alcoholism and others are not.
We all have our own weaknesses.
Quote
That weakness is godgiven.
I flatly disagree.
Quote
It wasn't developed by our choices. we were born with a suseptibility to alcoholism. Our choices perhaps put it into motion but did not casue one to be suseptible.
Just because one does not choose to be an addict, does not mean God made them an addict. If a car runs over me and breaks my leg, since it was beyond my control, should I claim that God broke my leg?
Quote
Another example that might illustrate my point. I have counseled someone who had a father who was very into pornography. It was all around this person as he grew up. He, while no choice of his own, grew up with seriously messed up perceptions and his own addictions to the stuff. Had Dad not had this around, this young man may have likely never experienced what he did. Now he has an addiction to the stuff.
Addictions are largely due to genetics and environment.
Quote
Do we say shame on him for chooseing it
We teach him to repent and how to overcome the addiction.
Quote
or do we teach that Christ can make his weaknesses strengths...
Christ's atonement is one of the most important ingredients in the process, but I still disagree that an addiction can be turned into a strength.
Quote
which by the way he can and did.
I believe that the atonement can help one overcome an addiction, but addictions are not cured, one must work hard the rest of one's life to avoid falling back into the habit.
Quote
We don't want to say sin is ok.. I am not trying to say that. but rather that if we recognize we each have personally tailored trials and challenges that are made for us to help us each overcome our weakness or weaknesses and our tendencies towards certain sins is my and your weakness. Some have homosexual feelings, some depression, some gambling, some drugs, some pornography, some alcohol, sexual issues, ect...ect...ect..... each of us has individual weaknesess and at least in some of these they are not a choice. They are inborn weaknesses.
I disagree. While some predispositions to addiction are certainly genetic, sins are not tailored to us, they are a learned behavior, largely due to our environment and our personal choices.
Quote
Does this take away agency.... no. We always have a choice and when we make the wrong choice willingly it is sin but for some of us the wrong choice is a lot less willingly then another person feelings on the same weakness.
I still don't know what this has to do with Ether 12.
Quote
Most of you would agree Homosexual feelings are not a choice for at least many who struggle. No their choosing to give in to them might be considered sin but would some of you agree the feelings themselves are god given... a weakness they have been given to overcome?
No.
Quote
sin is sin but are susceptibility to certain sins is our weakness and only the grace of God can transform us past these temptations to a perfect level of success
Have I ever said that we do not need Christ to overcome sin or an addiction?
If you want to claim that our individual weaknesses are God given, that is fine with me, even though I disagree, you will just have to find another scripture to back it up as Ether 12 just doesn't do it.
Do you notice that the word, "weaknesses" does not appear in Ether 12?
yes but it appeared as weaknesses in this talk.
I think Ether 12:27 is not only speaking of limitations but any weakness one has... any leaning to be prone to commit a certain sin or inability to perform God's tasks at 100%
.
T-Shirt, some of the problem is that in order to save time and space I am trying to reply to both of you simoutaneously. So please do not see me disagreeing with both of you on all things.... there is inevitably a lot of common ground. And while we all both adament there is flexibility for each of us to see the gospel as we do and not be heretical or in apostacy.
I truly respect our differences of opinion. I was taught the gospel the way your explaining it. I am not claiming enlightenment but I have coem to see the gospel differently then what you see. This new way has made a immense difference in my life and I know feel that Grace and it's power to change us (the mighty change spoken of in alma 5) is the crux of the doctrine of Christ. I no longer view obedience 100% to the commandments as having merit. required... yes but for a different purpose. Our hearts, willingness, and effort will decide what kind of glory we reach and what kind of glorified body we get but even in that I don't believe the "all we can do" or the "after we expend our best efforts" because other then SPencer W Kimball and Christ no one expends their very best effort nor does all they can do, nor is 100% obedient to the commandments. We all fall short, we all need grace.
Quote
Read it in context and if you can find a reference equating weakness to sin, please point it out. That does not mean that sins are not weaknesses, they just are not what Moroni is referring to.
I think while Moroni is not referring them directly, Paul does indirectly and is speaking almost the exact same principle
Quote
Do you feel that I have said anything to contradict this?
This is directed to Zerinus who hold the belief we must be 100% obedient to the commandments
T-Shirt - with you we only haggled over whether all weaknesses are god given With Zerinus it is about obedience versus grace. Does god have a bar of obedience that must be met and is that bar less then 100% obedience? I do not dispute it is asked of us and required by him but that there is no bar of 100% obedience in this life or else we can't make it back to the father
I agree it is a fine line... but I disagree that anything less then all we can do or not expending our best effort will place us in something less then the celestial Kingdom. I agree we are not saved by faith alone. But God's reason for asking so much of us is not to merit our exhaltation but to push us to be better, to be Christlike.
I know some here think they do all they can do. But in reality, no one does that. No one does every single thing they can do, no one expends their very best efforts ...... folks here can claim it but they don't. So with that said 99.999% of people who have ever lived will be unable to claim celestial glory becasue they have not expended their best efforts (Expending best efforts come from Elder McConkie's LDS bible dictionary definition of Grace and of course the all we can do = 2nd nephi 25:23)
The bible dictionary definition is wrong. Grace is not available only after we expend our best efforts. That incorrect definiton is based on a misunderstanding of 2nd Nephi's 25:23 which when understood properly states that "despite or nevertheless or not withsatnding all we can do, it is by Grace we are saved"
To me, our meriting (I prefer “being eligible for”) exaltation and being pushed (I prefer “invited, commanded or challenged”) to be Christlike are part of the same process and rooted in a willingness to take upon us the name of Christ and act accordingly. Either is only accomplished through the merits of Christ. I don’t think we can segregate, disintegrate, or “dys-integrate” one principle from the other, as all true principles are brought together in Christ (justice and mercy are two other and related examples).
Here’s how I read the Bible Dictionary definition of Grace: I take the introduction that the “main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ” as pretty straightforward, with the rest of the description hinging on and in context with that premise. I’ve seen elsewhere that grace is also defined as unmerited.
The conditions “after they have expended their own best efforts” and “total effort on the part of the recipient” are judged by God, and the closer one gets to Him, the more comfortable one is with what this means, no matter what others may say about” merit.” Personally, I don’t think these conditions qualify as “merit” so much as “eligibility” or the expression of an eternal “law” in the form of if/then; action/reaction; conditions for growth and progress; etc.
For example, I can say with all confidence that I am doing all I can do. It isn’t much to some, and is misdirected to others, but I’m doing it and owning it. I am confident that God accepts my widow’s mite. These are my best efforts. As I reflect upon my day and see how I could have done better, I repent, which is another facet of doing all I can do. I am better than I was yesterday because I am doing all I can do and God's grace is activated. I fully expect to be eligible for exaltation, and if I were to die today before I can repent tomorrow, I am still on the right track. Someone can tell me I'm wrong, and won't I be exalted if I keep up whatever I'm doing, but what i'm doing is repenting, so they can't stop me!
Faith is the first principle of the gospel and likely the most powerful factor in the Gospel. Once we are humble we are prepared to exercise real Faith relying wholly on Christ and not on ourselves. By Faith are mountains moved, Miracles are brought to pass, and we shall live by faith (Galatians 3:11); and yet faith alone can not save you for without works or an exercising of your faith, faith alone is dead (James 2:17). We even relinquish our sin by repentance through faith and take on God’s perfection through Faith (Philippians 3:9). One of the most important principles in the gospel, the enabling power of Grace, is tapped into by faith (Romans 5:2).
Faith by definition must be based on truth. It is impossible to have faith in something false (Alma 32:21). Faith is things hoped for, but not seen, that are true. As Alma points out in the 32nd chapter, Faith is not to know with certainty a truth in the gospel. Once one knows something for 100% surety it becomes a perfect knowledge and no longer is based on faith. Moroni 7:25-26 tells us that the process of the Plan of Salvation begins with Faith. That in order to save us, Faith must be exercised, and is the starting point of our salvation. If we were to compare the plan of Salvation to an automobile, While Christ is the fuel or life giving force, faith in him is the engine or the part that gets the rest of the car moving. While the other parts are needed, the car without fuel and an engine are useless.
How do we exercise faith. The power of real faith is enormous and yet if our faith is not sincere or we are only half invested we will likely be found wanting in regard to the rest of the gospel blessings. We can’t move onto Grace, repentance, the Holy Ghost, Mercy, or the Mighty Change of Sanctification until we have to exercise faith. Not a perfect faith but a consistent progression, growth, or exercising of faith.
Pick out something you believe is true and then as Alma says give room for it to grow with in you. Maybe you are unable to buy into the whole thing, the whole plan of God. Then just give room for a particle and see if it grows within you as you nourish it and tend to it. See if it bears fruit. Once you begin to see the growth in whatever particle(s) you have nourished then Alma says we can know of a surety that it is good and while that wont give us a perfect faith, we can have a perfect faith in that thing. At this point we move onto the next point or particle. If we will do this moving from fruit bearing principle to fruit bearing principle, our faith will grow over time by leaps and bounds.
For example in my life one particle I have nourished is the Book of Mormon. I have felt like Nephi when he said “hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.” (2nd Nephi 33:10).
So one particle I planted long ago is the seed of “The Book Of Mormon is Good and will lead me closer to Christ” After having read it from cover to cover I came to a perfect knowledge that this book was good, that this seed bore fruit every time I read from it's pages. Did that mean Joseph was a prophet, or that the church was true? No, but those now became new particles to plant and nourish to see if it bears fruit. The best advice I have is to be active in planting and nourishing seeds, principles, ideas, or concepts. Study them out in your mind. Give a place within you for them to grow.
If we were to compare the plan of Salvation to an automobile, While Christ is the fuel or life giving force, faith in him is the engine or the part that gets the rest of the car moving. While the other parts are needed, the car without fuel and an engine are useless.
I like that analogy. An alternate version of the analogy that takes it a bit further might be that Jesus is the oil company that provides the fuel, grace is the fuel, faith is the engine, repentance is the motion of the car, and baptism is the driver's license.
0
reelmormon, on 22 May 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:
