93 replies to this topic

[DBMormon]

Here are my intentions with this thread.  Each day I will post a new "ingredient" in the Doctrine of Christ the way I see it.  I would love to have a discussion as this goes along on each part and what you see as strengths and weaknesess of my position.  My hope is that I might be able to clarify in my own mind where I am off track and how I might better understand the atonement and all the blessings that come from it.

I will use scriptures throughout my writing to support my position but am truly open to other lenses to see this through.

Edited by reelmormon, 21 May 2012 - 04:22 PM.

[DBMormon]

The Law

We say in speaking of Christ that he fulfilled the law. Do we ever consider what that means? In part at least, it means he kept the Law of Moses, every jot and tittle. He did it. He was perfect. Why is that such a big deal? You see, each of us must be justified in order to be resurrected and enter back into the presence of the Father and to be judged. To be justified is to be pardoned or found not guilty of your actions. There are two ways within Mainstream Christianity and a third way that the restored gospel and continuing revelation have added that one can and will be justified. Let’s only talk about the first here. We can keep the Law perfectly. God gave rules.

While the Ten commandments may be most recognized, as they were directly given from God to Moses, there are approximately 612 laws in the Law of Moses. God’s directions were pretty simple. Keep the 612 laws contained in the Law of Moses and you would enter back into the presence of your Heavenly Father. On the outside that sounds simple enough. Simply get up every day and be perfect in those 612 things. As you can guess the problem arises in the application stage of this test. It’s impossible. Even if one is only asked to keep the directly given Ten Commandments, this endeavor would still be impossible. There is none righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10). We all sin.

One of the things Latter-Day Saints are accused of often is that we are trying to earn our way to heaven or earn our salvation by doing good works. This sterotype can at least in part be blamed on ourselves. In the church it doesn't take long to find a member who holds this belief. We have to be careful that we aren’t trying to earn our way to Heaven by our works. That we are not measuring our good works as having merit in providing our salvation. The scriptures say if we are leaning on the Law of Moses or the Ten Commandments to save us then we will find ourselves on the wrong side of the judgment (Galatians 5:4). If you take pride in being almost perfect, your missing the point. If you look at others and measure your righteousness against theirs, your missing the boat. Don’t get me wrong your righteousness is required but not as merits towards your redemption (JST Romans 4:2).

The question that we would be best to ponder on is this – Why did God give us a Law knowing that we would inevitably fail at it. He could have just as easily given us a simple law. Perhaps just blink our eyes twice a week and blow bubbles once a year. If so Free Will would still be in place and many more of God’s children would make it back on the Law alone. Do we ever consider that Heavenly Father doesn’t intend for us to be perfect in the Law, that indeed he made the Law impossible on purpose. In fact 2nd Nephi 2:5 tells us that the Law was created in part so that we may know good from evil and that if our focus is on keeping the Law or Rules then we shall be miserable and cut off. The Law was given for a 2nd reason as well. We are taught in the scriptures that the Law is a schoolmaster designed to point us to Christ (Galatians 3:22-25) The Law is designed to push us in the direction of having faith in and following the Savior. Keeping the law perfectly was created to be impossible for a reason. We are supposed to fall short. Not only do we each fall short, but we are to take notice of it. We are to recognize the great Gulf that stands between us and the Glory that awaits us. Only by seeing how short we fall, according to the Law, are we willing admit we can not do it on our own and then humbly turn ourselves towards the Savior and look to him. I believe the Law is designed by nature to help us see our weaknesses so that we may be humble (Ether 12:27).

Edited by reelmormon, 21 May 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Log]

May I contribute this reference?

Check my profile for more.

[DBMormon]

Log - I read the talk you sent, I have some disagreements with it but would prefer not to post them here as to not derail this before it starts so I will post it to my Grace Mercy Works thread

Also yes, you may contribute references to other talks and may use other quotes to enlarge the resources one may use to understand the "Doctrine of Christ"

Edited by reelmormon, 21 May 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 21 May 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Here are my intentions with this thread.  Each day I will post a new "ingredient" in the Doctrine of Christ the way I see it.  I would love to have a discussion as this goes along on each part and what you see as strengths and weaknesess of my position.  My hope is that I might be able to clarify in my own mind where I am off track and how I might better understand the atonement and all the blessings that come from it.

I will use scriptures throughout my writing to support my position but am truly open to other lenses to see this through.

The "doctrine of Christ" is expressed in modern scripture in these words:

3 Nephi 11:

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; . . . and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; . . .

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

D&C 10:

67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

As you can see, the “doctrine of Christ” is heavily weighted in the direction of repentance. That makes it important to obtain an accurate definition of repentance. That definition is given as follows:

D&C 58:

42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.
43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.

That is another way of saying, “keeping God’s commandments”. To sin means to break God’s commandments. To repent means to stop breaking them, which is another way of saying, to start keeping them. So the “doctrine of Christ” can be summarized in one simple sentence, and that is to keep all of God’s commandments.

[DBMormon]

Zerinus - right now we are simply dealing with the Law.  So for now...until tomorrow when I post the next ingredient -  I hope we can all stick to the Law.  Also, I mean this in the nicest tone, but I am close to ignoring you.  You have accused me at times of not being what I "claimed" and you have sought to put your two cents in (which I am happy to have) but without ever taking what anyone else says about the subject such as GA talks, scriptures that state any view other then yours, or the thoughts of me and others (Which is unacceptable to a discussion)  so I am hopeful you will choose to participate as this can be a great discussion for others who follow to better understand the doctrine of Christ with everyone's thoughts and opinions having value and accounted for.  Also I think your opinions have weight and are worthy of being discussed and have importance on this thread and others I have started.  I simply ask for respect and a willingness to address views that differ from yours
And obviously you are free to say and do what you like here within the acceptance of the MODs but as for me, I will not address you any further unless you are a willing participant in a discussion.
your friend in Christ,
-Reelmormon

Edited by reelmormon, 21 May 2012 - 05:33 PM.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 21 May 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Zerinus - right now we are simply dealing with the Law.  So for now...until tomorrow when I post the next ingredient -  I hope we can all stick to the Law.  Also, I mean this in the nicest tone, but I am close to ignoring you.  You have accused me at times of not being what I "claimed" and you have sought to put your two cents in (which I am happy to have) but without ever taking what anyone else says about the subject such as GA talks, scriptures that state any view other then yours, or the thoughts of me and others (Which is unacceptable to a discussion)  so I am hopeful you will choose to participate as this can be a great discussion for others who follow to better understand the doctrine of Christ with everyone's thoughts and opinions having value and accounted for.  Also I think your opinions have weight and are worthy of being discussed and have importance on this thread and others I have started.  I simply ask for respect and a willingness to address views that differ from yours
And obviously you are free to say and do what you like here within the acceptance of the MODs but as for me, I will not address you any further unless you are a willing participant in a discussion.
your friend in Christ,
-Reelmormon

Inasmuch as your thread title and subject is the "Doctrine of Christ," I have attempted to present to you that "Doctrine" as authoritatively and concisely as possible, as it is taught in the revelations of the Church. I can't understand why anyone should have a problem with that.

[DBMormon]

the thread's title... yes.  But one would not simply go into a thread and simply write something based on the title of the thread and not address what the actual thread was based on.  It seems a desire to pick up where you left off in the previous thread on Grace and works.  This is a new thread on a new subject matter and direction; which I look forward to your commentary and insight on.
Thank You

Edited by reelmormon, 21 May 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[CASteinman]

reelmormon, on 21 May 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

the thread's title... yes.  But one would not simply go into a thread and simply write something based on the title of the thread and not address what the actual thread was based on.  It seems a desire to pick up where you left off in the previous thread on Grace and works.  This is a new thread on a new subject matter and direction; which I look forward to your commentary and insight on.
Thank You

Not a complaint ... but if you are going to do these a great deal, I would hope you would choose more descriptive titles for the threads.  Again... not a complaint.

[DBMormon]

the thread is about the Doctrine of Christ.  But the direction of the Subject is just that to address it in a certain direction which has been explained.  The title can only be so many words.  So for those who are seeing this thread do you agree with the section on the Law?

[DBMormon]

Do you as viewers see the law as something we have to keep (expending our best efforts and doing all we can do).  That we have to prove ourselves by our obedience to the commandments.  That our obedience and exactness has merit in our salvation.  Or do you see the law as a designed to make us fail, exposing our weakness, humbling us, and turning us to christ.  Then using his grace or enabling power allowing one to be changed or transformed by God to with Christ's assistance be able to edge closer to being Christlike?

[CASteinman]

reelmormon, on 21 May 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

the thread is about the Doctrine of Christ.  But the direction of the Subject is just that to address it in a certain direction which has been explained.  The title can only be so many words.  So for those who are seeing this thread do you agree with the section on the Law?

I don't really see Jesus giving us a Law in order to show us how wicked we are.  That seems more passive-aggressive than I think He is.  I believe that the Law of Moses was given because the Israelites were not able to deal with a higher law.  So, a lesser law was given to help them become more pure and to show them the way to Christ... not through beating them down into a state of helpless sinfulness but through rituals meant to teach them principles of the Gospel and Principles meant to help them grow in obedience toward God and in fairness and compassion toward their fellow man.

[DBMormon]

Quote

I don't really see Jesus giving us a Law in order to show us how wicked we are.  That seems more passive-aggressive than I think He is.

I agree that God is not passive aggressive but not as a reason to dismiss my logic though.    Ether 12:27 certainly tells us God enjoys us becoming aware of our weakness, because it humbles us.  when it comes to weakness remember that he in the first place gave it to us; not because of being passive aggressive, but because he loves us and knows the only way we go from finite, imperfect, sinning, wicked children to perfect, christlike beings is by turning to christ and becoming perfecetd in him through grace and covenants, through faith and repentance and relying wholly upon the merits of Christ.  

When I read the scriptures from paul in 2nd Cor 12:9ish - 15ish,  or Ether 12:27, helaman 3:35, Moroni 10:32-33  it becomes apparent at least to me that God has designed a plan that intentionally forces us to admit we can't do it on our own and only by borrowing Christ's perfection through the baptismal covenant can I ever have hope to be transformed into something worthy of being an heir with Christ.   To me the whole plan is for me to bang my head into the wall enough times to admit I can't do it on my own.  Then looking to and yoking with Christ utilize his grace to enable me to do more and move forward faster then I could ever do on my own.  It is at work in my own life right now.  When I turn it over to him I am way closer to perfect and doing what is required then when I expend my own best efforts and try to do it on my own.    After all I can do?    I am so pathetic and unable to do anything on my own.  On my own I am nothing, I see it, it is obvious.  It has forced me to be humble, and to turn to Christ.  He sends me his grace.  Which lifts me, enables me to do way more then I can on my own.  It transforms me.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthenth me".

[CASteinman]

reelmormon, on 21 May 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

When I read the scriptures from paul in 2nd Cor 12:9ish - 15ish,  or Ether 12:27, helaman 3:35, Moroni 10:32-33  it becomes apparent at least to me that God has designed a plan that intentionally forces us to admit we can't do it on our own

I don't believe God is really trying to force us to do anything.  You have a view of God as pushing us to be humble, driving us to our knees.   I just don't see God that way and I also do not think that method would achieve His goals for us.

But if this view helps you to be more devoted to God then I am not going to try to object to it.

[DBMormon]

How do you make sense of the scriptures in Alma 32 where either we can be humble or God will compel us to be humble?

[DBMormon]

#2 Laws of the Gospel

While Paul, Nephi, and Moroni warn us of trying to earn Salvation by the Law (Law of Moses, following rules, or keeping commandments) We certainly should try to choose the right and set these standards as a goal. Once we see that we can not be saved by the Law, we then need to point ourselves back towards Christ and ask him and the Father what it is that saves us. The 3rd Article of Faith says “Through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel”. One might pick the word obedience out of the statement and begin to dwell too heavily on it. It is not obedience that saves us. First the obedience is to a particular group of items – The laws and ordinances of the Gospel. Second it is through the atonement of Christ we are saved. “Through” implies it is the vehicle or mode by which we get from trying to keep the laws and ordinances of the gospel to Exaltation with Heavenly Father. The atonement provides the verb or “action” in the process. So what are these laws and ordinances we need to obey.

The answer to that question is found in the very next article of faith. While the word Laws are exchanged for principles it is indeed these principles and ordinances that lead us to the Atonement and our Salvation. In fact the beginning words of the 4^th article of faith were changed and in the original 1842 wording of the 4^th article said “We believe that these ordinances are 1st, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2nd, Repentance; 3rd, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.” The “These Ordinances” refers to the 3^rd article of Faith's Principles and ordinances. If you read the original wording this becomes obvious.


So again what are they? They are Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance of our sins, Baptism by immersion by one holding authority, and confirmation for the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. I would add here as it will become plain the final unmentioned step of enduring to the end. If we can truly get this process down herein we are told is Salvation through the Atonement. Another place we find this”Doctrine of Christ” is found in 2^nd Nephi 31:17-21. We may think that Family History is the pure doctrine of Christ or part of it, we may think Tithing, or the Word of Wisdom is included in the pure doctrine of Christ, but it is not. We may think that Home Teaching is truly a part of the pure doctrine of Christ but again it is not. These in and of themselves are just more rules and commandments and laws designed to help us become more like the Son of God and to help us serve others in the same cause.

The “true and only” doctrine of Christ according to Nephi here is to enter the strait and narrow path (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost) and endure to the end “Pressing Forward with Steadfastness”(2^nd Nephi 31: 19-21). The easy way to understand this is the following. Can a Buddhist make it back to the Celestial kingdom, without ever having paid tithing in this life or the next? Can a Hindu get back to Heavenly Father without doing Home Teaching or Visiting Teaching in this life or the next? Can an Evangelical Christian get back to Heavenly Father without having done their four generation chart? To all of these questions is a resounding Yes. But they will be unable to get back if at some point in this life or the next they do not exercise faith, repent, be baptized by one having authority, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end having been sanctified and at some future point having become perfect. The pure doctrine of Christ is defined as the necessary steps for his children to return to him.


We will go into each of these in more depth but we must at this juncture see the importance on getting on this path truly joining in the yoke with Christ through faith, repentance, and covenants. This is more than going to Church. It is more than agreeing to join the church because of some pretty girl or your friend in school. We have now seen we can not get back to Heavenly Father through our own actions, so now it is time to team up with “him who is mighty to save”. These steps are not a one time thing. Your Faith will be required everyday. Your time spent repenting will need to be a regular occurrence, the attitude or repentance will need to be a constant feeling within you. You will daily need to come to terms with the realization of just how imperfect you are because it promotes a needed step in this process discussed in the next chapter.

While you are baptized only once you will be renewing that covenant each week as you partake of the sacrament. In essence you will be re-baptized each week in your inner commitment to once again try to keep the commandments and take his name upon you, and he will again promise his spirit to be with you. While only confirmed once, the spirit will leave you if you do not make a constant effort to be clean and repent as needed to have his companionship. The final Step Enduring to the end is just as it says. It is to endure all that life throws at you remaining strong in your faith, continually going through the refinement process becoming more and more like Christ progressing toward perfection.

While all the laws and commandments are not directly the doctrine of this gospel, it is through them that one “presses forward” and is refined and molded into someone the Lord can trust to be joint heirs with him. How much do we love him? How much faith will we have in him. How much will we trust in him? Will we continue to be “steadfast “ the further “forward” we get?

Edited by reelmormon, 22 May 2012 - 06:10 AM.

[CASteinman]

reelmormon, on 22 May 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

How do you make sense of the scriptures in Alma 32 where either we can be humble or God will compel us to be humble?

Alma 32 does not say that God compelled anyone to be humble.  It says some people were compelled to be humble by their fellow man -- and that this was not actually a very good thing.

[DBMormon]

not good compared to choosing to be humble but better then not being humble
what about ether 12:27?

[CV75]

reelmormon, on 21 May 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

The Law

I see the law as God’s will. His will can be manifest to us as commandments and principles, teachings and doctrines, personal instruction and enlightenment, and that experience we enjoy as we become like Him. His will is manifest in Christ, and I would include in that the Doctrine of Christ.

The law He gives us (the will He reveales to us) is designed so that it works upon our souls in a variety ways, depending entirely on how we choose to treat them, but with an eye toward changing and aligning our wills with His.

[CASteinman]

reelmormon, on 22 May 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

not good compared to choosing to be humble but better then not being humble

Yes, the Prophet was willing to take humility wherever he could find it and seek to teach the people.  But God did not make them Humble.  That would be like forcing obedience.  We have some doctrine about who wants to force that sort of thing.

reelmormon, on 22 May 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

what about ether 12:27?

What about it?  God is not forcing anyone to be humble there.

You can search and search and maybe find one or two cherry picked scriptures that might on a certain cast make it look like God forces people to be humble, but you have to ignore a vast message of the Gospel if you do that.

Edited by CASteinman, 22 May 2012 - 08:39 AM.