15 replies to this topic

[blooit]

I heard about if here on the board. Where can I get more information? I can't seem to find much searching online.

[volgadon]

Ask Kolipoki, he knows.

[kolipoki09]

blooit, on 14 May 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

I heard about if here on the board. Where can I get more information? I can't seem to find much searching online.

Todd Wood's blog has it scheduled for Wednesday, June 13 at the Colonial Theatre. I'll check with him to see the specific time.

[blooit]

I got the information from him. I am looking for background information. I'd like to know why Todd isn't on stage  

[kolipoki09]

blooit, on 15 May 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

I got the information from him. I am looking for background information. I'd like to know why Todd isn't on stage  

Well, I think it's just a typical exchange between Millet and Johnson that everyone can observe, then I assume there will be a Q&A after it's finished. The two biggest questions (from what I've seen) from eastern Idaho's fundamentalist/Evangelical Protestant population have to do with the "another Jesus" argument and the "another gospel" argument, both of which I'd love to see Millet address (it's something he's repetitively covered in his books - which are largely ignored outside LDS circles).

Other than that, I have a friend who attends Calvary Chapel that's made quite a fuss about LDS interpretations of "the Great and Abominable Church" and "the Church of the Devil" which he believes refers to himself and other Protestants and Catholics. Maybe he'll cover that too. We'll see.

[kolipoki09]

kolipoki09, on 15 May 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Well, I think it's just a typical exchange between Millet and Johnson that everyone can observe, then I assume there will be a Q&A after it's finished. The two biggest questions (from what I've seen) from eastern Idaho's fundamentalist/Evangelical Protestant population have to do with the "another Jesus" argument and the "another gospel" argument, both of which I'd love to see Millet address (it's something he's repetitively covered in his books - which are largely ignored outside LDS circles).

Other than that, I have a friend who attends Calvary Chapel that's made quite a fuss about LDS interpretations of "the Great and Abominable Church" and "the Church of the Devil" which he believes refers to himself and other Protestants and Catholics. Maybe he'll cover that too. We'll see.

Alright, for anyone else interested in the details of the meeting, here's the rundown.

It will take place Wednesday June 13 at 7 p.m. at the Colonial Theatre in Idaho Falls. It will also feature Jay Hildebrandt of KIFI Local News 8 (eastern Idaho's ABC affiliate) as the emcee.

I like Jay a great deal. I took two classes from him when I was at BYU-Idaho where he holds a part time adjunct position in the Communication Department.

[blooit]

Thanks Koli - I'll be there and look forward to it.

[kolipoki09]

Once again, I extend the invitation for any posters here to come to this if they can. Admission is free, however, the event requires that you reserve a ticket in advance. Further information and ticket reservations can be obtained here:

http://www.idahofall...in-conversation    


It's Wednesday night (June 13) in Idaho Falls. Colonial Theater, 7 p.m.

[blooit]

CRAP! I have a board meeting that night. Will someone be taping it?

[kolipoki09]

blooit, on 11 June 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

CRAP! I have a board meeting that night. Will someone be taping it?

I don't think it's allowed (at least it hasn't been in the past). However, I'd be glad to take notes and post them when it's over. Sorry you can't make it, blooit.

[blooit]

I'm devastated. I've been planning this for months, but I can lose my job for missing a board meeting. Kind of stinks. Tell Pastor Todd hi for me.  

[kolipoki09]

I would have said hi to Pastor Todd, but with 700+ people crammed into the auditorium, it was impossible to find him.

The dialogue went incredibly well. I'll post my notes tomorrow once I can coherently organize them. And here's a preliminary news story from an Idaho Falls TV station covering the event.


http://www.localnews...ll/-/index.html

[kolipoki09]

First and foremost, Dave Banack at Times and Seasons has his own analysis of the dialogue that is well-worth checking out.

http://timesandseaso...alls-edition/��

My notes start here:


Larry Hall (an Evangelical) worked to bring the program about with LDS leaders. It was a completely packed house, 600+! It was the 63^rd public dialogue between Millet and Johnson. Both don’t want to establish a winner and a loser. Purpose is to demonstrate “dialogue” which means trying to better understand another person’s mind and heart – allowing them to answer for themselves.  It means truly attempting to help Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals better understand one another by lowering the rhetoric. Treat others with less caricature, more like real people.  2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake was a watershed moment for a new kind of relationship and conversation between Mormons and outsiders, especially Evangelicals.

Bob: By what audacity can you establish that I’m not a Christian?

Greg: Society demands a sound bite answer, but it’s more complicated than that. The First Vision (which apparently has no “proof”), polygamy, and the obscurity of early Mormonism made it unwelcome to Protestant culture, especially when the First Vision denounced all of post-Nicene Christianity as an “abomination.” Renouncing Mormonism as “non-Christian” is a recent phenomenon (last 40 years or so). Mormons brought the “non-Christianity” argument upon themselves because of its exclusivity.[1]

Bob: Walter Martin’s “Kingdom of the Cults” likely introduced (or resurrected) the idea that Mormons aren’t Christians. The problem of the “sound bite” comes to the person on the street, who never really knows the whole story and who isn’t prompted to do so because of a “quick, sensational answer.”

Greg: Mormons clearly believe the historical figure and work of Christ. Still, Mormonism is better viewed as an “imitation” of established Christianity. Mormonism defines God and the personhood of Christ so differently from the Evangelical understanding that it ought to rename itself from something other than Christian. Terms like “grace” and “faith” have been redefined enough by Mormons to distinguish it from traditional Christianity.

Bob: The claim we’re not Christian calls into question the LDS commitment to the person of Christ as defined by the New Testament. Mormons believe they’re a “different manifestation of Christianity,” but that doesn’t exclude them from the title “Christian.” It’s better to say “that’s not an easy answer” than to say “yes” or “no” about whether Mormons are Christians or not.

Greg: But General Authorities don’t like the media referring to the FLDS and other polygamists as Mormons. It’s better to “talk about what it means” rather than answering yes or no to the Christianity of Mormonism.

Greg: Where are Mormons at with regard to Grace and Works?

Bob: The Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon state that Salvation is the “greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 6:13; 14:7, 1 Nephi 15:36) and that “Salvation is free”  (2 Nephi 2:4; 26:27). You can’t EARN a gift. Salvation and eternal life are often used interchangeably in LDS texts. Mormons don’t believe salvation is something that can be “bartered for” or “earned.” We must have complete confidence in Christ. From genuine faith would come repentance, which comes through the realization of one’s nothingness. Baptism doesn’t save – Christ saves. The ordinances are an outward ritual of acceptance of Christ’s Atonement. “Grace vs. Works” is a stupid question. The common LDS cultural idea that we “hope we’ve done enough” is tragic. It’s not all about you, it’s about Him.

Bob: How to you respond to the idea that you can do whatever you want after you’ve been “saved? “

Greg: Christians promoting the “cheap grace” idea are heretics, as the Lutheran martyr Dietrich Bonhoeffer notes. It is not consistent with the call of Christ. If you truly come unto Christ, you undergo a transformation. True faith is manifest in faithfulness. We can’t earn our way to God through impressing Him. We have to admit that we’re sinners and that we’re spiritually dead in order to claim the salvation Christ has for us. Christ came to let dead men live again.  A faithful life does not always mean a perfect life, but rather means allowing God to work in us in a sanctifying way toward justification.

Greg: Mormons believe that God was once a man and became a God. That doesn’t align with what Protestants generally understand about the Bible. Explain.

Bob: When Joseph Smith said God was once a man, we really don’t know much about the nature of God before that. [Citing Pres. Hinckley’s comments about the vagueness about the origin of God in the King Follet Discourse]. There’s nothing in LDS scriptures to clarify it. It’s somewhat implied that He wasn’t always God, though the BoM speaks of Him as the eternal God (2 Nephi 26:12; 9:8; Alma 34:9; 11:44; 1 Nephi 12:18; Ether 8:23). There is a lot of folklore and misunderstanding about the LDS doctrine of exaltation. What did the New Testament writers mean when they said we can become “joint heirs with Christ”, “partakers of the divine nature” and “children of God” in the resurrection and “when he shall appear, we shall be like Him”? These are biblical allusions to this doctrine. For us, becoming like God means becoming more Christlike. Theosis and deification are part of historic Christianity, and Evangelicals always speak of being like Christ. The idea that we’ll preside over our own universes and planets goes beyond what our texts actually say. A member of the Quorum of the Twelve recently told Millet “I don’t know anything about that planet stuff.” We believe we can grow in attributes to become as Christ is with our families.  Nothing in our literature suggests that we will worship anything other than the Godhead. To claim we’ll be worshipped by our spiritual posterity isn’t part of our texts.

Greg: The idea of becoming more like Christ is compatible with my theology.

Bob: Do Evangelicals believe that Christ left His body behind when He went to heaven?

Greg: The body is a manifestation of His eternal love. Many Evangelicals end up explaining the Trinity more as modalism. I was often held up as a trophy for Evangelicals as someone who “saw the light” and left Mormonism. Many with whom I’ve spoken used to pray for the destruction of Mormonism, but through this dialogue, tensions have eased and they’re much more charitable. We have to learn how to love each other better. Most street preachers at General Conference are not showing love. We have been called to love by the One who is the ultimate expression of love.

Audience: How do you reconcile weird stuff in Church History?

Bob: When God makes a man a prophet, he does not unmake a man. We don’t believe in prophetic infallibility. We were wrong about the Priesthood ban. We can’t apply unrealistic standards to prophets. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was WRONG. God can work with imperfect people. I apologize for those events, though I have no authority to apologize for anyone other than me. It’s time Evangelicals start talking about the contemporary LDS Church, rather than the past.

Audience: Does God recognize the goodness Mormonism does?

Greg: It’s not a helpful thing to tell a self-professing Christian that they’re not a follower of Christ. That’s up to God to judge, who knows your heart and soul. There’s not a theological test we all need to pass. How much bad theology can you have and still get to heaven?  I don’t really know. Still, Evangelicals often think Mormons practice Christianity by behavioralism, not by theology. Mormons and Evangelicals ought to unite on issues of morality like traditional marriage, the family, decency, and life in general. We share common biblical values.

-----

At this point, it was a little too fast-paced to keep up, but this was the overall summary of the discussion.

[1] Todd Wood has documented 19th Century arguments against Mormons as Christians here:
http://heartissuesfo...orridor-post-1/

Edited by kolipoki09, 15 June 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[calmoriah]

Quote

especially when the First Vision denounced all of post-Nicene Christianity as an “abomination.”.....Mormons brought the “non-Christianity” argument upon themselves because of its exclusivity.

Honestly if they have been having a dialogue for 63 times and these are two of the criticisms then it seems to me, Pastor Johnson is not listening too well or Bro. Millet has missed some chance at correction.

Rather disappointing.

Quote

It’s better to “talk about what it means” rather than answering yes or no to the Christianity of Mormonism.

Agree with this one, pity it doesn't happen as often as the criticism is made though.

Quote

We can’t earn our way to God through impressing Him.

Does this imply that he thinks LDS believe this?  If so, again disappointing.

Quote

It’s not a helpful thing to tell a self-professing Christian that they’re not a follower of Christ. That’s up to God to judge, who knows your heart and soul.

This seems to contradict what he stated earlier or at least how he presented what a dialogue should consist of.  This statement I throughly agree with.

Edited by calmoriah, 16 June 2012 - 02:15 AM.

[Buzzard]

I do wonder why some LDS run away from the "Become like God" thing. I have seen it in manuals and heard it preached from the General Conference pulpit. I can only surmise that it is such a sacred and yet majestic doctrine, caricatured by our enemies into being issued a planet each, that we are just not wanting to throw pearls before swine.

[kolipoki09]

Buzzard, on 17 June 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

I do wonder why some LDS run away from the "Become like God" thing. I have seen it in manuals and heard it preached from the General Conference pulpit. I can only surmise that it is such a sacred and yet majestic doctrine, caricatured by our enemies into being issued a planet each, that we are just not wanting to throw pearls before swine.

Honestly, the idea that Latter-day Saints can literally become gods and goddesses was something foreign to me, at least until I encountered the doctrine on my mission. I had participated in the endowment ceremony about a dozen times, had graduated from Seminary, and was raised active my entire life. I'd heard the phrase "becoming like God" several times, but the thought never dawned on me as to what it actually meant. I'd suggest that the reason people tend to avoid mentioning it is because we know so little about it.