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Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou

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I spoke with a friend (who also happens to be one of your Facebook Friends) who works at the Maxwell Institute today, and he mentioned that some of the other guys there are working on publishing something about you that I imagine will be something of a hit piece
So it is possible that it was not the secondhand friend at the MI that called Greg Smith's article a "hit piece" but rather it was the individual who thinks of the MI as a "paranoid ultra-conservative apologetic group"......

Which label is certainly much better than calling someone an "anti-mormon".

Edited by calmoriah

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On another board where this alleged article was first discussed, it was disclosed that I am also about to be the target of Maxwell Institute hit piece. I have less first hand knowledge of this than John claims for the article he believes is about him. I have not made any attempt to stop its publication (if it exists). I have no GA friends to whom I might appeal, but I do have a couple of men inside the Maxwell Institute whom I call friends. I haven't even asked if it is true.

Echoing John, I don't mind being criticized. Standing on what I have written, I would want such an article published.

Exactly.

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All I want to say here is that making apologetics/criticsms personal is very depressing.

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JD,

I am a fan of many of your interviews. You seemed to have started your program off trying to play the fence giving people on both sides a fair place understand the whole equation allowing belief on both sides. Lately, the last 2 months or so, it has been very one sided. It is apparhent to me that you no longer plan to run a fair program, which by the way seemed to be what made your program so well attended. I see from the list of folks listed at the bottom who are viewing this, we have quite an audience here.

May I say for one who has enjoyed your show in the past. I am dissapointed you brought this dissagreement here and onto other boards. I see you now have a full fledge agenda and even have people in high places to assist you with it. Good luck, you have lost one from your empathizing fan base. Having served in the church, I have enjoyed the criticism of others on things I have done. Never sent a ward email to discuss it though. Very dissapointing

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Here's another email I sent to Daniel Peterson and my supportive friends that was part of the dialogue:

I'm happy to provide more facts/details...will try to consolidate them over at Mormon Discussions.

One thing you share with those among whom your popularity has recently skyrocketed: you are a cunning propagandist who knows how to capitalize on the relative ignorance of those whose perspectives you seek to mold.

Of course, regardless of its utterly mythological status, this whole "apologetics destroyed my faith" meme has become virtually an article of faith among the ex-Mormon crowd. At the very least it has become a talking point imperative. Never mind that it is only adopted AFTER apostasy has occurred. Why is that? Quite simply because it is nothing more than a weapon in the arsenal of the apostate evangelists; a weapon designed to discredit LDS apologetics in the eyes and minds of those who simply aren't in a position to know better.

How better to prevent faith from being defended and strengthened than by disarming and destroying, if possible, those for whom that is the primary objective of their work?

You have to hand it to people like Dehlin and his ideological cohorts: they aren't nearly as dumb as the people who accept their propaganda uncritically.

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Thanks, but I more interested in seeing the email(s) where John threatened, blackmailed and defamed Professor Peterson.

lol....agreed...... there seems to be more to this...awkward

Edited by reelmormon

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Thanks, but I more interested in seeing the email(s) where John threatened, blackmailed and defamed Professor Peterson.

Standard, irrelevant Jaybear response.

Interesting that John would characterize LDS apologetics using such quotes. Of course, with the disaffected it's always someone else's fault, and apologists make a convenient target. The only hit piece we seem to really have available at this point is John's.

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I find nothing objectionable with the first email from John, with the inquiry going out to all sources. However, I don't see any reason for the second email with the list of assertions about FARMS and FAIR without any specific references to instances in question. From my perspective, I think that second email was extremely unhelpful.

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I've now posted yet another blog entry on this matter:

http://dcpsicetnon.blogspot.com/2012/05/barry-and-me.html

You won't be surprised at its characteristically vicious tone, given the fact that I'm a "violent" and "cult-like" "Doberman," who, having "chosen the dark side of the force," "lusts for vicious personal attack as sport." (I've borrowed a random selection of the things posted about me within just the past few minutes in one thread about this matter on just one ex-Mormon board.)

"The apologists probably would have got away with it," says one of the participants in the thread there who, like all the others, has never seen the essay in question, "if they hadn't boasted so much before publication or attacked you so violently and disproportionately."

Perhaps it's just quibbling on my part, but how can he possibly know that the essay "attacked" John Dehlin "violently and disproportionately" given the fact that neither he nor anybody else pontificating there has ever laid eyes on it? And I'd love to have some details about our alleged "boasting" about the piece. Where did we do this? Can he supply some specifics?

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I find nothing objectionable with the first email from John, with the inquiry going out to all sources. However, I don't see any reason for the second email with the list of assertions about FARMS and FAIR without any specific references to instances in question. From my perspective, I think that second email was extremely unhelpful.

I tend to agree.

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I think these discussions/disagreements would be a billion times shorter if all the biting sarcastic rhetoric and name-calling was removed from the picture. The cheering gladiatorial crowds, however, wouldn't be nearly as entertained. But I get the feeling if the participants didn't want the crowds, they wouldn't constantly be going in for the verbal kill.

Edited by David T

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51 users on here right now.... do we know if that is a record?

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Thanks, but I more interested in seeing the email(s) where John threatened, blackmailed and defamed Professor Peterson.

You may not think that it was defamatory to cull out insulting criticisms of me and send them to prestigious Mormon academics and to a senior leader of my Church, and you may not think that it was a kind of threat and blackmail to suggest that, if he didn't get a satisfactory response, he would happily gather up more such insulting criticisms and send them to a still-higher-ranking leader of my Church.

But his note was about and (copied) to me, and I did.

I'm happy for you that you can contemplate such treatment of somebody else with such equanimity.

And, as I said, the timing was poor. I hadn't yet even read the paper in question, I was on the road, my brother was dead, and I had just, a few minutes before I left, had a police officer in my home taking notes on threats of violence against me from a deranged ex-Mormon. I wasn't much in the mood for ultimatums from John Dehlin.

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Incidentally, phaedrus, regarding the accuracy of my Stalker's secret informants...

Religious subject matter by its very nature tends to attract a certain number of "interesting" personalities many of which thrive on the anonymity of the internet. Occasionally the degree of attention some people pay to other individuals and subjects moves into a unhealthy category. People like that feed on attention, positive and negative, and why it's often said on the internet "don't feed the trolls".

Your position front and center has the unfortunate consequence for making you the magnet for these types. I admire your huevos in putting yourself out front.

Phaedrus

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I've now posted yet another blog entry on this matter:

http://dcpsicetnon.b...rry-and-me.html

You won't be surprised at its characteristically vicious tone, given the fact that I'm a "violent" and "cult-like" "Doberman," who, having "chosen the dark side of the force," "lusts for vicious personal attack as sport." (I've borrowed a random selection of the things posted about me within just the past few minutes in one thread about this matter on just one ex-Mormon board.)

"The apologists probably would have got away with it," says one of the participants in the thread there who, like all the others, has never seen the essay in question, "if they hadn't boasted so much before publication or attacked you so violently and disproportionately."

Perhaps it's just quibbling on my part, but how can he possibly know that the essay "attacked" John Dehlin "violently and disproportionately" given the fact that neither he nor anybody else pontificating there has ever laid eyes on it? And I'd love to have some details about our alleged "boasting" about the piece. Where did we do this? Can he supply some specifics?

They have already commenced the process of erecting an infrastructure to the mythology that will then become, for them, the TRUTH; things as they really were in relation to the "Dehlin 'Hit Piece' Affair".

This is what they do.

It is what all good propagandists do.

What consistently amazes me is how quickly they achieve a high level of coordination in the endeavor. That must be a remnant effect of their days as faithful Mormons. Still, I'm always impressed by how, without any apparent planning, they all fall almost instantly into line and assume a single voice, telling a single story, with passion, devotion, and unquestioning conviction.

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I think these discussions/disagreements would be a billion times shorter if all the biting sarcastic rhetoric was removed from the picture. The cheering gladiatorial crowds, however, wouldn't be nearly as entertained. But I get the feeling if the participants didn't want the crowds, they wouldn't constantly be going in for the verbal kill.

I'm certainly not the one who's driven forty-plus pages on this topic on a single message board alone.

I've said virtually nothing publicly about the matter, as you can readily see. (I've provided the links on this very thread to absolutely everything I've posted regarding it, anywhere.)

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Dan, thanks for giving us your side of the story.

So, as I now understand it,

1. John Dehlin heard there was a hit piece on him

2. Rather than verify the information in a calm and nice manner, Dehlin chose to go immediately to a GA and threaten you and others with ad hominem attacks.

3. When DCP did respond, he explained he was out of town and not focused because of a death in the family.

4. Dehlin continues on the attack.

5. While no one has seen the "attack piece", Dehlin publishes this here and everywhere else, hoping for sympathy and outrage, conveniently leaving out the stuff that make him look paranoid, angry, and stupid.

So, I hope we all have this down now.

I think you are close but just a little off.

1. John Dehlin heard there was a RUMOR OF A hit piece on him that his "informant" IMAGINED would be something of a hit piece.

WOW!!!

just WOW!!!

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Religious subject matter by its very nature tends to attract a certain number of "interesting" personalities many of which thrive on the anonymity of the internet. Occasionally the degree of attention some people pay to other individuals and subjects moves into a unhealthy category. People like that feed on attention, positive and negative, and why it's often said on the internet "don't feed the trolls".

Your position front and center has the unfortunate consequence for making you the magnet for these types. I admire your huevos in putting yourself out front.

Phaedrus

Well said, the previous post as well. (I am out of rep points for the day so must resort to cheerleading)

Edited by calmoriah

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For the record, I'm going to lay out the facts (as I know them) regarding the Greg Smith, Daniel Peterson, Lou Midgley happening of the past few weeks and months.

2) I immediately emailed Daniel Peterson, and cc'd a few people I consider to be friends, to find out if this was true -- telling him that if, indeed, the story was true, that I would appreciate knowing about it, and that I would be contacting my GA friends to ask for their involvement. This was his response:

Remembering that we all want to tell the truth about our history, I note, for the record--as indicated by Dehlin's email I posted (that Dehlin did not)--Dehlin emailed a general authority and cc-ed Dan and others.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Will Schryver that first brought up the subject on this board?

http://www.mormondia...es/page__st__20

Will mentioned Greg's article. Dr. Hamblin mentioned the censorship attempt.

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I note, for the record--as indicated by Dehlin's email I posted (that Dehlin did not)--Dehlin emailed a general authority and cc-ed Dan and others.

that I would be contacting my GA friends to ask for their involvement
Yes, I noticed that variation.

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Will mentioned Greg's article. Dr. Hamblin mentioned the censorship attempt.

So JD didn't bring it here. He did show up in his own defense.

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So JD didn't bring it here.

Not here, no.

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I would like to relate my personal experience with regard to my personal faith crisis in order to shed some light on the concerns that many have with regard to the tactics employed by FAIR/FARMS?MI.

Several months ago, I was give a book, written by an scholar regarding the life of Joseph Smith. There were several things in that book that I had been told were untrue and simply a case of misinformation. The book in question was Rough Stone Rolling. Reading these things brought up many, many old wounds. Compund that with me going to my ecclesiastical leaders and begging for answers. They refered me to the scriptures and also to the apologist's writing on the many issues I was struggling over.

So I started the sojourn of wanting so desperately to believe and looking for ways to help me make sense of it all. Some of the first sources I encountered were written by Dan Peterson. Mind you, I am in at the begging of a major faith crisis and am looking for help. I am pleading with Heavenly Father to help me find the truth and to help me make sense of some of the troubling history that I had rediscovered and to put it to bed once and for all in my life. (I have not yet listened to one podcast, nor have I read any other source other than Bushman).

My sojourn takes me to Mr. Peterson's writings, and he was not the only one, but the tone and vitriol of what was being written by these supposed men of God, totally turned me from a believer desperately holding on to my now fragile testimony, to a person shattered. Where was the humilty and respect of the Savior? Where was the kind and nurturing messages I had hoped for? What I found was akin to my elementary days and middle school days of schoolyard name calling and pious denunciation of those to whom the authors so disagreed.

So I turned to other sources and found books written by current and former members who were contrite and humble in what they presented. I ahve carefully avoided the Tanners and others whose retoric is decidedly anti-Mormon. I can honestly say that I owe my personal apostacy to those "intellectuals" at Fair/Farms/ and the Maxwell Institute.

Mr. Peterson, when John Dehlin writes that you and your associates and turning people away from the church, he is telling you the truth. I am one example of thousands who went looking for help and assurance and ended up inactive and lost.

(And before you holier than thou, pious posters on here try to judge me, please understand, I was in a bishopric in Utah. I have been in an Elder's quorum presidency, and I have held many other leadership positions. I have six kids all under the age of 15. I was a 6th generation member with a very strong testimony. You would be wise to heed my words and to humble your tone and set as your mission a desire to bring souls unto Christ, rather than the opposite).

Thank-you for the opportunity to respond!

Rufus

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