13 replies to this topic

[Hamilton Porter]

One vangie asked me how Isa 29:13-14 can be about the coming forth of the BOM if the entire chapter is about Jerusalem.

FARMS doesn't even claim it is. Isaiah in the Book of Mormon (which I received for being a donor) Cloward says that any prophecies of the BOM were from Nephi's"likening" to his own situation.

Then I picked up Eerdmans Commentary on the Bible. Some of you may know that Margaret Barker wrote the Isaiah section. She said the "blindness" and the "sleep" in Ch. 29 were criticisms of leaders in Jerusalem who removed the first temple cult, Enochic angels, etc. Of course, Barker enumerated the truths Joseph Smith restored from the earlier religion here:
https://ojs.lib.byu....wFile/7066/6715 Hehe, restoration indeed.

Hail Margaret, full of grace, pray for us Mormons!

Do not make light of another religion's name or prayers if you want to stay in the thread.

[calmoriah]

"vangie"?  "Evangelical"?  Is this a common nickname for evangelicals for themselves?

[Hamilton Porter]

calmoriah, on 08 May 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

"vangie"?  "Evangelical"?  Is this a common nickname for evangelicals for themselves?

yup, evangelical

[theplains]

This passage is one of judgement on the people of Ariel, their prophets and their rulers - "For the Lord hath
poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the
seers hath he covered".  The book in verse 11 is neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
Jim

[volgadon]

theplains, on 11 May 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

This passage is one of judgement on the people of Ariel, their prophets and their rulers - "For the Lord hath
poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the
seers hath he covered".  The book in verse 11 is neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
Jim

There is a quote by Michael Fishbane demonstrating how biblical texts were edited and recontextualised, even in biblical times. He used that selfsame passage in Isaiah. Interestingly enough, riginally it doesn't even seem to have referred to prophets at all. http://calba-savua.b...ishbane-is.html

[Hamilton Porter]

theplains, on 11 May 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

This passage is one of judgement on the people of Ariel, their prophets and their rulers - "For the Lord hath
poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the
seers hath he covered".  The book in verse 11 is neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
Jim

Yes, but what were the prophets at Jerusalem reprimanded for? According to Barker, it was for removing the First Temple cult, removing the Enochic tradition, and removing the ability for humans to see God. All of which Joseph Smith restored.

I looked on a host of commentaries (Oxford, Eerdmans, IVP) and none of them identified what the book was.

volgadon, on 11 May 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

There is a quote by Michael Fishbane demonstrating how biblical texts were edited and recontextualised, even in biblical times. He used that selfsame passage in Isaiah. Interestingly enough, riginally it doesn't even seem to have referred to prophets at all. http://calba-savua.b...ishbane-is.html

Looks like Nephi was following the interpretive tradition.

[volgadon]

Quote

Looks like Nephi was following the interpretive tradition.

Exactly. It can also be seen in the Doctrine and Covenants, where revelations were written, rewritten and spliced together following increased knowledge.

[Nevo]

Hamilton Porter, on 08 May 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

One vangie asked me how Isa 29:13-14 can be about the coming forth of the BOM if the entire chapter is about Jerusalem.

FARMS doesn't even claim it is...

So what? The Church does claim that Isaiah 29 is a prophecy about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and teaches it regularly to members young and old. So your Evangelical friend's question still stands.

[Cushan Rishathaim]

Nevo, on 11 May 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

So what? The Church does claim that Isaiah 29 is a prophecy about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and teaches it regularly to members young and old. So your Evangelical friend's question still stands.

Exactly.  Note the commentary currently provided to LDS students on Isaiah 29 in Church curriculum:


"Sometimes people who are familiar with the Bible and are not members of the Church will ask us something like “If the Book of Mormon is such an important part of the work of God, why is it not mentioned in the Bible?” There are several answers to that question, and one of them is “It is!” Isaiah 29is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name. As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

http://www.lds.org/s...13.4?lang=eng#3

It's wrong, therefore, to suggest that Isaiah 29 is not presented by the Church as a prophecy of the Book of Mormon.  To quote the manual, "it is!"

Edited by Cushan Rishathaim, 12 May 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Freedom]

Anybody's position on the matter is conjecture anyways since nobody knows the original question that stimulated the answer, and nobody can ask the author what he really meant. Scholars agree that Isaiah is multi-layered and applied to multiple situations. He is also often chronological in his writings. It is a much different style of writing than modern English and applying our standards leads to false assumption.

[Hamilton Porter]

Nevo, on 11 May 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

So what? The Church does claim that Isaiah 29 is a prophecy about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and teaches it regularly to members young and old. So your Evangelical friend's question still stands.

Cushan Rishathaim, on 12 May 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

Exactly.  Note the commentary currently provided to LDS students on Isaiah 29 in Church curriculum:


"Sometimes people who are familiar with the Bible and are not members of the Church will ask us something like “If the Book of Mormon is such an important part of the work of God, why is it not mentioned in the Bible?” There are several answers to that question, and one of them is “It is!” Isaiah 29is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name. As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

http://www.lds.org/s...13.4?lang=eng#3

It's wrong, therefore, to suggest that Isaiah 29 is not presented by the Church as a prophecy of the Book of Mormon.  To quote the manual, "it is!"

Both of you need to read the OP again.

[Nevo]

Hamilton Porter, on 12 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Both of you need to read the OP again.

I didn't misread your post. And, no, I don't believe that Margaret Barker's brief commentary on Isaiah 29 constitutes evidence that the Church's interpretation of Isaiah 29 is correct. Even if Joseph Smith's revelations do contain some truths that "cohere" with Barker's idiosyncratic reconstruction of preexilic Israelite religion(s), that is beside the point. In its canonical form, Isaiah 29 does not contemplate the Book of Mormon in any way, shape, or form.

In the words of the late Brother Cloward: "Isaiah lamented in Isaiah 29:11 that the vision of Jerusalem's people had become as the words of a sealed book. No specific book was mentioned. Isaiah's concern was the lost vision of his people, not books. His expression is symbolic—a simile, one of many similes and metaphors in Isaiah 29. Isaiah's symbolic sealed book is still sealed today" (Robert A. Cloward, "Isaiah 29 and the Book of Mormon," in Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, ed. Donald W. Parry and John W. Welch [Provo, UT: FARMS, 1998], 201).

[Vance]

I just love how Margaret Barker challenges a lot of the assumptions of the so called "orthodox, traditional Christian" world.

[volgadon]

Vance, on 16 May 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

I just love how Margaret Barker challenges a lot of the assumptions of the so called "orthodox, traditional Christian" world.

Sad to say, she does it with a boat load of her own assumptions.