178 replies to this topic

[changed]

on another thread on another forum we were talking about the nature of God's love - do you have to earn it through good works?

We love him, because he first loved us.1 John 4:19

sounds like God loves us before we do any works to earn it...



can it be taken away through bad works?

(New Testament | Matthew 5:44 - 48)
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Seems like in order to be like our Father we need to Love our enemies... Does God love His enemies?

(New Testament | Romans 9:13)
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

(Old Testament | Psalms 11:5)
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

[Anakin7]

God Loves us yes - AMEN but we can be separated from Him and not obtain Full Salvation through our total rebellious actions - No Once Saved Always Saved.

In His Debt/Grace
Anakin7
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited by Anakin7, 08 May 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[altersteve]

The good works I do cannot save me, but I cannot be saved without them. And there is a difference.

[Anakin7]

I am reminded of something Martin Luther said - " Works are neccesary for salvation but they do not cause salvation for faith alone gives life ".

In His Debt/Grace
Anakin7
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited by Anakin7, 08 May 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Zakuska]

zerinus, on 07 May 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

Grace without repentance will not save anyone, period. That is written all over the scriptures.

AMEN! I do not know of a single instance in scripture where some one was saved by doing absolutely nothing. In every instance Faith was exercized and manifested in an Action.

They all had to come follow Christ and beleive in him.

[altersteve]

Zakuska, on 08 May 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

They all had to come follow Christ and beleive in him.

And following Christ and believing in Him is something you do. It requires action!

[Anakin7]

"Believe or Believing from my understanding of that greek word is present tense, - an on going action.

   In His Debt Grace
   Anakin7
   LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Zakuska]

altersteve, on 08 May 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

And following Christ and believing in Him is something you do. It requires action!

However, there were plenty Damned by "doing absolutely nothing".

I know of no more explicit a pronouncement about the roll of works in the equation of Salvation than this:

Matt 7
21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 08 May 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

Hardness of hearts = open rebellion.... not willing or trying


thinking you are more righteous... Pride.... heart is not in the right place


if you are not watchful over your thoughts and deeds, concerned about the words you heart is not right... no mighty change
also observe to keep the commandments - look to keep them... try to keep them


those who rebel against him and die in their sins.... - those who rebel and do not repent.  Willfully rebeled... again no broken heart and contrite spirit.  read 2nd nephi 31 and write down the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST and then look for it every where.  As it ells us how to be saved... in the sense of exhaltation
1.) have faith - believe in and yoke with Christ
2.) repentance
3.) baptism
4.) Holy Ghost
5.) Moroni 32:6 i believe adds that other ordinances might be added - so the temple falls into this
6.) endure to the end - spend your entire life trying, never giving up regardless of how difficult.  pressing forward with steadfastness.  We must always be improving, we must try, our hearts must be willing, but there is no line we must reach at any certain moment in our life.

I prefer to say it the way the Lord has said it, "keeping God's commandments".

Quote

A.) you still have not answered... in your framework why does a loving father in heaven asks us, his children, to keep the commandments?

Because He loves us and wants to be saved and obtain eternal life; and He knows we can't do that without keeping His commandments.

Quote

B.) How many commandmnets must one keep?

All of them.

Quote

do you keep all of them?

Yes.

Quote

do you repent of every one of them?

Yes.

Quote

if not you according to what you require can't make it.

Agreed.

Quote

Do you not see the scriptures teach us to find a way to unite with Christ and only with his assistance and grace are we able to do all things.

Agreed. How does that contradict what I said?

Quote

If I am headed in the right direction and trying, pressing forward with steadfastness, I will get there.

Agreed. I call that keeping God's commandments.

Quote

You may put all the burden on yourself to do all he requires and yet one may do all that god asks in keeping the law and if one never is spirituually changed (D&C 88:21) and sanctified, he must inherit another kingdom.

I don't recognize that. I go by the scripture, "If ye love me, keep my commandments".

Quote

He must be both Justified as well as Sanctified

Meaning?

[Zakuska]

And another:

Matt 25
31 ¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Theres an awefull lot of "DOING" in these verses to gain entry into Heaven.

Both these groups "beleived" in and had "Faith" in God.  The only difference between the two is what they DID.  

This can all be boiled down to,  "Our actions are the only thing that really do matter." God takes care of all the rest that we can't take care of.

"by Grace yeh are saved AFTER all ye can do" is not a license to do Nothing. Because we should constantly be engaged in doing something and being profitable servants.

Edited by Zakuska, 08 May 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[DBMormon]

Zerinus, you really claim to keep all the commandments?  WOW..... you are much better then me.  I fall short of the glory of God every day.  What keeps you here with us mere mortals rather then living with Enoch in that wonderful translated city?

No one is perfect except Christ.  We all break commandments...

Perfection will be a eternal journey, not just this lifetime.  Many will have a chance after this life to accept Christ and move towrds perfection.  


Stephen Robinson taught it like this


Many years ago I came into contact with a woman who was, initially at least, one of the roughest persons I have ever known. Abused as a child, she had run away from home and had lived on the streets for years. As a young woman, she traveled around the country with a motorcycle gang. In late middle age, her beauty gone, she spent most of her time in a pub, where some missionaries met her when they went in to get change for a pay phone outside. When she was baptized, many of the members worried that her conversion wouldn’t last, and there were good reasons to suspect it might not.

For a long time after her baptism, this sister still swore like a trooper, even in Church, and never quite lived the Word of Wisdom one hundred percent. On one occasion during her first year in the Church, she lost her temper during a Relief Society meeting and punched out one of the other sisters. Her ex-husband is an alcoholic, and her children have all spent time in jail. Now the question before us is whether someone like this can seriously expect to be saved. What hope does a person like this, with all her faults and weaknesses, really have? With her background and problems, why bother coming to Church at all?

“Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” God does not lie. Whoever will come, may come. All are invited, none is excluded. Though this sister had further to travel than most, the same covenant was offered to her: “Do all you can. I will do the rest while you learn how.” And she was as faithful as she could be under her circumstances. She never said, “No, I won’t,” or “Get off my back,” or “Why talk to me? Talk to him, he started it.” She always said, “I know; I’m sorry. I’ll try to do better.” Then she would try to do better. Often she would fail, but little by little over the years, she improved a great deal. First she gave up coffee, tea, and alcohol. Then she stopped swearing. Later she overcame smoking and got her temper somewhat under control. Finally, after she’d been in the Church many years, she was ready to go to the temple. Can such a person really expect to inherit the kingdom of God? Of course.

But now the harder question. At what point did this sister become a candidate for the kingdom? Was it when she finally gave up her cigarettes, or when she got her language and temper under control? Or was it when she finally qualified for a temple recommend? No. It was none of these, though they were all important landmarks in her progress. She was justified through her faith in Jesus Christ on the day that she repented of her sins, was baptized, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, for she entered into that covenant in good faith and in all sincerity. She believed in Christ, and she believed Christ. Like the widow with her mite, she gave all she had and held nothing back. It may not have been much, but it was everything.

[zerinus]

Zakuska, on 08 May 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

However, there were plenty Damned by "doing absolutely nothing".

I know of no more explicit a pronouncement about the roll of works in the equation of Salvation than this:

Matt 7
21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Zakuska, on 08 May 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

And another:

Matt 25
31 ¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Theres an awefull lot of "DOING" in these verses to gain entry into Heaven.

Both these groups "beleived" in and had "Faith" in God.  The only difference between the two is what they DID.  This can all be boiled down to,  "Our actions are the only thing that really matter."

Thank you Zak. I agree with all your quotes.

[DBMormon]

Zakuska,

I have never said one stands on the sideline and makes it.  He must try.  It is just that there is no line.  There is no number of commandments one must keep.  There is no line one must meet, no sheet of works or commandments one must complete before they get there.  There must be effort and work and persistance but the God I worship values the "Pressing Forward" more then the movement of the stone.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 08 May 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Zerinus, you really claim to keep all the commandments?  WOW..... you are much better then me.  I fall short of the glory of God every day.  What keeps you here with us mere mortals rather then living with Enoch in that wonderful translated city?

My mission here is to call you to repentance!

Quote

No one is perfect except Christ.  We all break commandments...

I think you should speak for yourself. The Lord has commanded us to keep His commandments, and that is what I do. If you think I don't, tell me which commandment I am not keeping, and I promise you I will repent and keep them.

[Zakuska]

reelmormon, on 08 May 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Zakuska,

I have never said one stands on the sideline and makes it.  He must try.  It is just that there is no line.  There is no number of commandments one must keep.  There is no line one must meet, no sheet of works or commandments one must complete before they get there.  There must be effort and work and persistance but the God I worship values the "Pressing Forward" more then the movement of the stone.

I have to disagree there. The line is "one Fruit".  No fruit production and you will be cursed like the fig tree.

[DBMormon]

Paul didn't seem to mind his infirmites.   He was ok falling short becasue he knew by his heart and effort that Christ's Grace was suffcient.  So Paul was wrong?  Is Elder Holland Wrong in his testimony of the "Only True God".  Is Robert Millet, Stephen Robinson, Gerald Lund, Bruce R McConkie, Brad Wilcox, all wrong?  The scriptures seem to say both "keep the Commandments" and "you will fail at keeping them though my grace is suffcient"  The only way to understand these contradictions is to understand the real Why of the Loving Father who asks his children to keep rules.

2nd COR 12:

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.




Answer this - The Savior asks the rich man if he keeps all the commandments, the young man answer yes master since all the days of my youth, one more thing he is asked by Christ, go thy way, sell all that thou hast and come follow me.  The young man couldn't.  Easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle.  Right afterward the apostles were in awe and said master who then can be saved?????  he reply is priceless  "with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible"  The rich man can't get in on his own becasue he falls short due to greed, pride, ect......   But with God and his grace he makes it....  With God all things are possible.

[DBMormon]

Quote

I have to disagree there. The line is "one Fruit". No fruit production and you will be cursed like the fig tree.

Spell it out for me, give me the minimum list.  I am LDS not some evangelical.But I find no way one reads the list and talks given in the beggining and doesn't come to understand that his grace is suffcient

Is his grace not suffcient?

Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest, take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

So christ doesn't give us our weakness?
Does he make our weakness a strength or do we do that?
Do we become perfect to come unto him or do we come unto him and in doing so become perfected in him?


Is this definition on LDS.ORG false?
http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD
Grace
Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.

Additional Information
Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20–22; 2 Nephi 9:6–13).

Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8–10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).

The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27)


And so there is no confusion, to live his gospel means to have faith, repent, receive ordinances and to endure to the end.  that's it.  

Edited by reelmormon, 08 May 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 08 May 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Zakuska,

I have never said one stands on the sideline and makes it.  He must try.  It is just that there is no line.  There is no number of commandments one must keep.  There is no line one must meet, no sheet of works or commandments one must complete before they get there.  There must be effort and work and persistance but the God I worship values the "Pressing Forward" more then the movement of the stone.

The commandments of God are not so vague and unclear that we don't know what they are to keep them. He wouldn't tell us to keep his commandments if we didn't know, of if it was not clear to us what they were. When the young Jewish ruler asked Jesus which commandments he should keep to obtain eternal life, He didn't give him a vague, unclear answer. He told him precisely what were the commandment he should keep:

Matthew 19:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good?  there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which?  Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The commandments of the Lord are clear. We have the Ten Commandments. We have the Sermon on the Mount. We have all the revaluations of God, including modern scripture, which tell us what His commandments are; and we are expected to keep them--all of them.

[DBMormon]

One might want to read Gerald Lund's talk in the Apr. 1981 Ensign
http://www.lds.org/e...uery=lund+grace

I am amazed by the Book of Mormon as it is adament on this subject.... Are works suffcient?  Is keeping the cammandments suffcient?
Never read that anywhere but I read all over the place that his grace is suffcient.  Why.... because it is.

Edited by reelmormon, 08 May 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[DBMormon]

we are expected to keep them but the act of doing so does not gain us entrance into exhaltation.  They simply assist us to become like him.  As a parent you give your kids things to do and not do....ex: don't come home past your curfew.  If they tried but still didn't make it back and time.  Do you kick them out of the house for that... no.  Willful disobedience.. maybe.  But not for simply missing the mark though there was effort.

Did you read the story above with the lady who took a lifetime to correct her flaws and sins?  If she had died before she fixed them, would she be excluded from Exhaltation?  If you say yes you are very wrong and misguided.  If you say no, then you prove my point.  
We will have to be perfect to be celestial, but that is an eternal journey and until that moment, I can borrow Christ perfection through the baptismal covenant I made and borrow his perfection and his grace and be perfected in him till then.

Edited by reelmormon, 08 May 2012 - 12:25 PM.