Grace, Mercy, And Works And The Revealed Role Of Each

[CASteinman]

OBE

Edited May 22, 2012 by CASteinman

[Anakin7]

I have a full copy printed out in front of me from past perhaps they are working on the site.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

Access True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis]

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited May 22, 2012 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive - http://www.mormonwiki.com/Grace_of_God

Fixed Link !.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[CASteinman]

Fixed Link !.

Yep! Its working. Thanks.

[Anakin7]

You are welcome. I live to serve !.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Cobalt-70]

You post as though TULIP never existed and does not exit. You also post as though there are no commandments required to be obeyed.

Only Calvinists believe in "TULIP." Calvinists make up only a small proportion of Christianity.

It is false notion that we do nothing for our salvation. We absolutely do. It is required that we do things for our salvation. And indeed... where much is given MUCH is REQUIRED. And yet, it is always possible for Much or Little to be given and yet the REQUIRED response (much or little) may not be forthcoming and so, Salvation in the Kingdom of God is lost.

What does this have to do with salvation by grace? Sola gratia does not say that "we do nothing for our salvation." All it says is that the only means or mechanism of salvation is through the grace of Jesus Christ. This is nothing different from what is said in Mosiah 4:8, Alma 38:9, or Helaman 5:9.

Original Mormon theology (circa 1830) recognizes two separate concepts: the "means whereby salvation cometh" (Mos. 4:8 ) and the "conditions whereby man can be saved" (Ibid.) The only means of salvation is through the grace of Jesus, which is what 2 Nephi 2:7-9, 2 Nephi 10:24, 2 Nephi 25:23, Mosiah 4:8, Alma 34:15, Alma 38:9, and Helaman 5:9 say. 2 Nephi 2:8 is a particularly powerful statement of classic sola gratia:

"Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah...."

Another good one is Alma 34:15, which says that the mercy of Jesus "bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance."

As to what the conditions of salvation were in 1830 Mormonism, the primary one, at least, was faith. Indeed, the Book of Mormon says that Jesus "shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved" (2 Ne. 2:9), which is why in the other thread, I am arguing that the Book of Mormon is compatible with sola fide. Repentance and baptism are also conditions of salvation, but the Book of Mormon portrays repentance and baptism as fruits of faith. So salvation is by faith alone, but faith operates to justify a person through the mechanism of repentance, baptism, and the sanctification that comes through obedience to the commandments. For example:

• "And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance....[H]e that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore, only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption. Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye may begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you." (Alma 34:15-17.)
  
• "And behold, he cometh to redeem those who will be baptized unto repentance, through faith on his name." (Alma 9:27.)
  
• "And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having a peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them." (Mosiah 4:3).
  
• "aptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments." (Moroni 8:25.)
  
• Nephi "went forth among them in the same year, and began to testify, boldly, repentance and remission of sins through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ." (3 Ne. 7:16).
  
• Ether "did cry from the morning, even until the going down of the sun, exhorting the people to believe in God unto repentance lest they should be destroyed, saying unto them that by faith all things are fulfilled." (Ether 12:3).
  
• "In the name of Jesus Christ I ordain you to be a priest (or if he be a teacher, I ordain you to be a teacher) to preach repentance and remission of sins through Jesus Christ, by the endurance of faith on his name to the end." (Moroni 3:3).
  

This is all classic sola fide discourse.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[CASteinman]

Only Calvinists believe in "TULIP." Calvinists make up only a small proportion of Christianity.

The elements of TULIP, Luther claimed to agree on. In actual fact, he was uncommitted to the "L" and actually rejected the P:

"Should [the christian] grow so foolish, how ever, as to presume to become righteous, free, saved, and a Christian by means of some good work, he would instantly lose faith and all its benefits"

The key though is, that the T, U and I are all explanations and versions of Sola Fide and Sola Gratia.

Deny that as much as you will.

These are the core (and false) tenets of Protestantism.

[CASteinman]

What does this have to do with salvation by grace?

Salvation by Grace is so misleading as to be essentially false and Salvation by Grace alone is false. You keep misrepresenting Sola Fide and Sola Gratia by insisting that they are compatible with the Restored Truths of the Gospel.

They aren't. They reject the Truth about Works at the very least. They reject the doctrines that WE MUST WORK OUT OUR SALVATION.

Sola gratia does not say that "we do nothing for our salvation."

Bogus. Not only does it say we do nothing for our salvation.. it says we are UNABLE to do anything for our salvation. It even says We are saved DESPITE what we do or try to do. Here is a very representative description, not this idiosyncratic version you are postulating:

http://www.keepbelie...By-Grace-Alone/

The truth, Restored, teaches that Men have Agency and Power unto themselves to Act and that this is intrinsic to their existence, not merely a gift of God. And not only that, but ACT is required for Salvation. You have to participate in your own rescue.

This is directly and forcefully contradicted by Sola Fide, Sola Gratia and TULIP. You constantly deny this for some reason.

This is all classic sola fide discourse.

Utter tripe.

Edited May 22, 2012 by CASteinman

[Anakin7]

WE are Saved by True Grace alone [charis] which has approx 50 different definititional meanings in the anchient world, one of which is unmerited favor. Grace is Accessed and made alive in the individual by True Faith Alone [pistis - faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty obedience,trust].

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited May 22, 2012 by Anakin7

[CASteinman]

WE are Saved by True Grace alone [charis] which has approx 50 different definititional meanings in the anchient world, one of which is unmerited favor. Grace is Accessed and made alive in the individual by True Faith Alone [pistis - faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty obedience,trust].

We are saved by Jesus.

[Cobalt-70]

The elements of TULIP, Luther claimed to agree on. In actual fact, he was uncommitted to the "L" and actually rejected the P:

"Should [the christian] grow so foolish, how ever, as to presume to become righteous, free, saved, and a Christian by means of some good work, he would instantly lose faith and all its benefits"

The key though is, that the T, U and I are all explanations and versions of Sola Fide and Sola Gratia.

Deny that as much as you will.

These are the core (and false) tenets of Protestantism.

Protestantism is more than Martin Luther and John Calvin. The Arminian branch of Protestantism disagrees with ULIP. This branch includes Methodists, most Baptists, Congregationalists, Pentecostals, the Churches of Christ, and Quakers.

The T, U, and I have nothing to do with the solas. T is "total depravity," which means that because of the fall of Adam, a person is "carnal, sensual, and devilish," and incapable of good without the grace of Jesus. This one is actually very consistent with the Book of Mormon and early 1830s Mormonism.

U ("unconditional election") just means that God predestines people for salvation or damnation, and that are no conditions for salvation. Arminians oppose this because they believe people have free will, and can choose to be saved, or choose not to be saved. Both Calvinists and Arminians believe in sola fide. The issue is whether faith is a choice, or a foregone conclusion for a select few.

I ("irresistible grace") means that it is impossible for the elect to refuse to receive God's grace. Arminians oppose this, again, because they believe in free will. Again, both sides believe in sola fide and sola gratia, but the issue is whether or not grace and faith can be resisted, not whether or not grace is the mechanism for salvation, or whether faith leads to saving grace.

[Cobalt-70]

Bogus. Not only does it say we do nothing for our salvation.. it says we are UNABLE to do anything for our salvation. It even says We are saved DESPITE what we do or try to do. Here is a very representative description, not this idiosyncratic version you are postulating:

http://www.keepbelie...By-Grace-Alone/

The truth, Restored, teaches that Men have Agency and Power unto themselves to Act and that this is intrinsic to their existence, not merely a gift of God. And not only that, but ACT is required for Salvation. You have to participate in your own rescue.

So do Arminians.

On the issue of whether agency is inherent or a gift of God, Mormonism has more than one answer. The Book of Moses says it is a gift from God: "and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency." (7:32). See also Moses 4:3: "Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him." The Book of Mormon also says that agency is a gift of grace from the atonement: "because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon." (2 Ne. 2:26).

I understand, however, that David O. McKay disagreed with the above and believed agency was an inherent property of intelligence, possibly basing his views on D&C 93:31. It is possible that the doctrine had evolved between 1830 and 1833, when the gnostic D&C 93 was written. But even the freedom referenced in D&C 93 can be interpreted as a gift, given that the agency referenced in D&C 93:31 acts "in the sphere in which God has placed it." So maybe you could say that agency is a combination of intelligence and "sphere"--perhaps meaning context. The intelligence is inherent, and the context is a gift of God.

But either way, I don't think that the idea of inherent agency opens up any significant rift between Mormons and Arminians. The only reason that Mormon agency would be uncreated is the fact that human spirits themselves are uncreated. I don't think it matters for purposes of soteriology whether or not agency is created or uncreated.

[Cobalt-70]

We are saved by Jesus.

Saved by Jesus, only through the mechanism of his grace, and grace is obtained through faith, which alone justifies a person by causing him or her to repent, be baptized, and endure in righteousness. At least, that's the Wesleyan version of sola fide that I think is compatible with Mormonism.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[DBMormon]

Cobalt, are you following my doctrine of Christ thread? and if so are you and I very similar in our agreement of theology

[Anakin7]

We are saved by Jesus.

True but we must access His Awesome Grace [charis] to Be Saved/Exhalted by way of True Faith [pistis] = Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited May 25, 2012 by Anakin7

[followerofemmanuel]

Sorry it bored you... It is about a half hour long but first 17 minutes are life changing at least they were for me. Also while you simply want to talk and not interested in listening to his point of view, then you obviously won't be interested in mine as they match. Listen to the first 17 minutes and then see what you think

if that does nothing for you then this thread will not be up your ally.

For some reason the video did not work for me However I have started chewing on some of the information given through the links you shared, thanks. I really appreciate your forum discussions reelmormormon. I feel like their is opportunity for learning, discussion and questions which is really refreshing as personally, I am not here to debate. Blessings!

[DBMormon]

glad to hear it Follower of Emmanuel. Thank you for your complements. For me this talk was an absolute turning point for me and where my gospel focus was. Please read you will find why I have come to see the gospel a different way then "Earning Heaven" Which I used to believe and still way too many of us mormons still do. I don't believe it is doctrine though, I think many Leaders at the local and even higher up have at times worded things in such a way as to blur this. One example was Elder Faust once said we had to do our part to help pay the debt - http://www.lds.org/g...rt of the debt"

and yet the scriptures say Christ gave an infinite atonement, he did it all, he paid the whole debt.

by the way

the written copy of the talk is found at http://speeches.byu....=13436&x=59&y=9

video link is here in case something was broken http://byutv.org/wat...57-7000b9945468

try to copy and paste the other talks at the beginning of this thread are awesome and while some claim not to care about what others say, and others feel they don't have time to read all the above sources. It will change your life.... they are so awesome and so precise when all added up together on the "doctrine of Christ"

We talk of all these appendages to the gospel and yet this is the gospel....

Edited May 27, 2012 by reelmormon

[CASteinman]

glad to hear it Follower of Emmanuel. Thank you for your complements. For me this talk was an absolute turning point for me and where my gospel focus was.

I think Brad Wilcox talk is a bit funny. He is not teaching any false doctrine but a different emphasis. There is a way that I think the emphasis is appropriate -- it is about looking up. If you only pay attention to that upward look you will miss some other things that God has also said. And God has said them for a purpose. They are not so "positive".

I think that people who love the upward look are more fit for it though.

[DBMormon]

I think that people who love the upward look are more fit for it though.

Please correct me if I am wrong but you seem to say that this looking upward is not entirely satisfactory and yet those who like this way of seeing the gospel get what they ask for. consoled in this life and yet missing out on eternal blessings? Is that the tone I should have taken this

If not how are those who prefer this paradigm more fit for it?

Edited May 27, 2012 by reelmormon

[followerofemmanuel]

glad to hear it Follower of Emmanuel. Thank you for your complements. For me this talk was an absolute turning point for me and where my gospel focus was. Please read you will find why I have come to see the gospel a different way then "Earning Heaven" Which I used to believe and still way too many of us mormons still do. I don't believe it is doctrine though, I think many Leaders at the local and even higher up have at times worded things in such a way as to blur this. One example was Elder Faust once said we had to do our part to help pay the debt - http://www.lds.org/g...rt of the debt"

and yet the scriptures say Christ gave an infinite atonement, he did it all, he paid the whole debt.

by the way

the written copy of the talk is found at http://speeches.byu....=13436&x=59&y=9

video link is here in case something was broken http://byutv.org/wat...57-7000b9945468

try to copy and paste the other talks at the beginning of this thread are awesome and while some claim not to care about what others say, and others feel they don't have time to read all the above sources. It will change your life.... they are so awesome and so precise when all added up together on the "doctrine of Christ"

We talk of all these appendages to the gospel and yet this is the gospel....

Thanks to your openness. I appreciate this type of discussion. The challenge for me though is that, the more I learn here, the more questions I have. There is so much to read, to understand. It feels like for every layer of understanding of LDS doctrines, there are a ton of other layers underneath that to understand, and so on and so on.

I remember a couple years ago I had a conversation with two missionaries. They were explaining that my Baptism was not sufficed because it was not done with proper authority and that I did not belong to the true Church. We had a lengthy discussion and we agreed to disagree. Then here I am, years later, poking around to learn more about the LDS teachings etc. So after reading through some threads (mainly yours), I go to mormon.org to learn about Baptism and what it takes to join the Church etc. (Not that I am ready to dive in or anything...just checking things out) but then I find I have more questions. It’s difficult for me to reconcile my understanding of grace and the place for works with how others see it, although I am learning a lot. So I'll ask you a question, as I think it relates to this thread, if not, perhaps email me a response.

So I read the following from Mormon.org- my comments/questions are in red

"Joining Christ’s Church

Jesus Christ taught that baptism is necessary to become a member of His kingdom or Church (John 3:5). Agreed

The minimum age for baptism is eight, when a person is old enough to comprehend the importance of the commitment that he or she will be making. Regardless of gender, marital status, or ethnic origin, Jesus Christ invites all who are prepared to join His Church.

Prior to being baptized, a person must have faith in Jesus Christ and repent of his or her sins. Once an individual has repented and come to understand the commitments and obligations that come with joining the Church, he or she may be baptized. Why and what are the obligations before joining the church and getting baptized. I think I understand in LDS teaching, this needs to be done by someone with Priesthood authority, which I don't understand anything about yet. This must be done by immersion by one having the proper authority. I had full immersion baptism by my Pastor whom I understand to have authority according to the Bible. The person is then confirmed a member of the Church and given the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is also done by those having the proper authority. They place their hands on the head of the person being confirmed, pronounce a blessing, and bestow this marvelous gift. After baptism, Church members promise to keep the commandments and to strive to follow Christ. The key challenge here to me is PROMISE. How do I dare promise to keep something which is for me impossible? I could not make that promise. I could promise to try and do my best...but I know I really need his mercy and grace. It feels to me like there is a lot to do just to profess faith in Jesus and get baptized, not to mention join your church. Does it get easier or are there many more obligations to follow to go to your church."

I sincerely hope that my questions do not come across irreverent in any way. But I feel like I am starting to understand how works seem to be more emphasized in the LDS church and I want to see if my understanding is unique to me or accurate, or on the right track. How do you know what to do and where to find the answers with so many scriptures and teachings from Living Prophets? Is there a place to read the reader’s digest version to get a general understanding of things, or do you have to commit to studying everything.

[DBMormon]

I was in a motorcycle accident yesterday so typing is difficult so please be patient with my answers as they may be shorter then normal. Also I am heavily drugged... so here it goes

Why and what are the obligations before joining the church and getting baptized.

-faith in God the Father, Jesus - AKA God the Son, and Holy Ghost

- Faith or testimony of the Restoration (joseph was a prophet, todays leaders receive inspiration for the church

- keeping of minimal standards of worthiness

I think I understand in LDS teaching, this needs to be done by someone with Priesthood authority, which I don't understand anything about yet.

- Christ laid hands on apostles and gave them authority to baptize, heal the sick, ect.... Regardless of whether the church is true or not, I absolutely believe the original 12 apostles of Christ were given authority to do the work of the church and that another coming into their group had to be ordained or set apart by them by the laying on of hands. So while Our church may or may not have it depending on who you ask.... It is needed by anyone wanting to perform ordinances within Christ's gospel.

This must be done by immersion by one having the proper authority. I had full immersion baptism by my Pastor whom I understand to have authority according to the Bible.

What I share here is my point of view only and I am absolutely aware that I could be wrong and your pastor's authority right. but here it goes

When you say Pastor you are implying to me a protestant church. All Protestant churches broke away from the Catholic Church or Orthodox church because they felt there was an apostacy or some level of no longer being approved by God. So feeling this way they begin to point out wrong turns by the head church, eventually breaking away and beginning their own church (methodist, baptist, episcapalions, ect....

Now if you were a police officer and you saw your department as corrupt.... so you decide to go public with their problems. Seeing that as not having the desired outcome you quit and decide to start your own police department... except you can't, you do not have authority. Your reason was just and holy but does not carry the authority needed to carry out your duties.

Well intentioned and perhaps without a restoration, is the best possible scenario and yet it is missing a key ingredient. And without authority none of the things you do will hold any strength in a court of law.

God is the same. Things must be done by authority.

So one must either take the side that the Catholic or one of the other original churches still have it or with the death of the apostles and no church hierarchy at the top, that authority was lost and needed to be restored. And if a restoration was needed to occur then one must conclude if anyone can do that or must it be done by God.

How do I dare promise to keep something which is for me impossible? I could not make that promise. I could promise to try and do my best...but I know I really need his mercy and grace.

\

That is where I disagree with some straightline Mormons. Mosiah chapter 18 beginning at verse 8 and running through 10 is used often in the church to show at least in part our baptismal covenant. In these scriptures we promise two things. To be "WILLING" and to have a "DESIRE". The recited prayer on the sacrament each week also contains the word willing on the prayer for the bread. The water part does not say willing, but the water portion also doesn't ask me to keep the commandments. My baptismal promise to God is as follows

- I promise I have a desire to do all he asks

- I promise to be "willing" to keep keep the commandments and to serve those around me. Willing doesn't always translate to positive outcome or results, but rather a constant effort to want to try.

- I promise to remember him always through my partaking of the sacrament

- I promise to repent when I fall short

Now these are sacred covenants that God is asking us to take. In order to protect us from jumping into these before we are prepared to handle such a sared obligation, he requires a basic standard of worthiness that anyone having a testimony of the restoration and a desire to make these covenants will easily be able to meet.

It feels to me like there is a lot to do just to profess faith in Jesus and get baptized, not to mention join your church. Does it get easier or are there many more obligations to follow to go to your church."

With the above promises that is all he asks yet in the church there are opportunities to make even bigger covenants. Bigger in what he asks of us, and bigger in what he promises if we do them. Those covenants may require one to live a sightly higher standard so as to qualify one as prepared to make those covenants.

Does it get easier? this spiritual journey isn't supposed to be easy otherwise there would be no growth.

Elder Jeffrey R Holland one of our 12 apostles said the following

"Obviously as the path of discipleship ascends, that trail gets ever more narrow until we come to that knee-buckling pinnacle of the sermon of which Elder Christofferson just spoke: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” What was gentle in the lowlands of initial loyalty becomes deeply strenuous and very demanding at the summit of true discipleship. Clearly anyone who thinks Jesus taught no-fault theology did not read the fine print in the contract! No, in matters of discipleship the Church is not a fast-food outlet; we can’t always have it “our way.” Some day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ and that salvation can only come His way.

I sincerely hope that my questions do not come across irreverent in any way.

Not at all.... I joined the church when 17. I have spent my life trying to dig deeper and deeper into what is the gospel and what are appendages to it. Your questions are great questions and I hope my answers meet that standard as well

But I feel like I am starting to understand how works seem to be more emphasized in the LDS church and I want to see if my understanding is unique to me or accurate, or on the right track. How do you know what to do and where to find the answers with so many scriptures and teachings from Living Prophets? Is there a place to read the reader’s digest version to get a general understanding of things, or do you have to commit to studying everything.

Prophets and apostles are human, and though inspired at times or receiving revelation at times they also make mistakes and word things incorrectly at times. With that said one must always delve into the scriptures and multiple talks in order to get insight into true doctrine. There is no easy way to understand all the mysteries of God and/or his precepts

but a good start would be

- scriptures

- http://www.lds.org/m...ciples?lang=eng - gospel essentials manual ( but again there is no guarantee that every single word in this is absolute truth as it involves men, inspired as they are, to try to define in our own capacity the revelations of God. ) What I find is that when I read several talks on a subject I begin to gather all the things said on a subject and then I go and pray and ask God to increase my understanding.

- 13 articles of faith - http://www.lds.org/s...of-f/1?lang=eng

This should give you a good start... let me know if I answered your questions in a way that is satisfactory and if you have more let me know.

Edited May 28, 2012 by reelmormon

[followerofemmanuel]

Thanks reelmormom for your answers above. I thought I would not quote it all because between all my questions and answers, the entry is quite lengthy. At this point I do not have anymore questions as I have some more reading to do I am sorry to hear about your accident. It sounds like you got hurt? I hope that your ok.

Edited May 28, 2012 by followerofemmanuel

[DBMormon]

I am good. Hurt yes, but nothing too serious. Please let me know if I can be of anymore help to you

[Calm]

I was in a motorcycle accident yesterday so typing is difficult so please be patient with my answers as they may be shorter then normal. Also I am heavily drugged...

My sympathies....my husband is a motorcyclist fan. The general attitude seems to be not "if I will get into an accident" but "when". People asked me if I was going to forbid him from riding after his own accident (cracked some ribs and punctured a lung plus some road rash)....like he's not a fully grown adult who can make intelligent decisions for himself. My only requirement is that his insurance is current.

Took him much longer to recover than he thought, so don't overdo it thinking it will disappear over night.