178 replies to this topic

[DBMormon]

We belong to a church that separates itself from the rest of Christianity in it's emphasis on good works.  
What is the real role of Grace and Mercy in the church?

To prepare for this discussion one may want to check out the following video
Brad Wilcox - His Grace is Suffcient   http://byutv.org/wat...57-7000b9945468

One may also want to listen to
Stephen Robinson - "Believing christ"
Robert Milllet - "Grace after all we can do"
Brad and Wendee Wilcox - "faith, an anchor to my soul"
Bruce R McConkie "what think ye of salvation by grace" http://speeches.byu....der.php?id=6910
Gerald Lund "salvation: by grace or works" http://www.lds.org/e...-works?lang=eng


Questions to be discussed
1.) Do you have the same view as Bro. Wilcox in the above video? Did you learn anything from his talk?  what do you see differently?

2.) What does it mean to "do all you can do"? (2nd Nephi 25:23) some say just repent, some say as Bible Dictionary does to "expend one's best efforts", some say that verse is mis understood and the salvation has nothing to do at all with all we can do.  Where do you stand?

3.) Is "Grace" undervalued within Mormonism?  Should we talk about it more or are we honoring it's proper place already?

4.) Because of the teaching within LDS theology that one must "work out our Salvation" that we in some ways are taught to rely on Christ too little and to try to do it ourselves instead of yoking with him?

I have a bunch more, but we will start there.

Edited by reelmormon, 08 May 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[DBMormon]

Scriptures that are a good reference for this discussion are listed below.  
Reading the following scriptures will do several things
- one if you are a critic who feels the BOM has little to do with Christ.... the BOM scriptures below will be awe inspiring
- if you value the restored goepel at all these scriptures will bless your study and help you better grasp the Doctrine of Christ better then you ever had before... My promise.
- come to understand that the pure "Doctrine of Christ" is so interwoven in the New Testament and Book of Mormon as to display how these two stand as witnesses of each other in a major way.  

I dare you to take the next few days and make this list your scripture study for a bit... also take notes... so awesome


2nd Nephi all of chapter 31 with special focus to verse 18-21 then going to Ch 32:6
Helaman 3:35
2nd Nephi 2:3
3rd Nephi 27:16-20
Alma 42:22-24
Alma 24:11
Mosiah 5:15
Jacob 4:7, 12
Ether 12:27
2nd Nephi 25: 23-26, 29-30
Alma 24:11  (goes with 2nd Nephi 25:23)
Moroni 10:32-33
D&C 19:11-18
followed up by D&C 88:21
Alma 5:12-15, 26, 28 through the end
D&C  20:30-34
D&C 137:9
Abraham 3:25
Galatians 3:24
Galatians 2:20-21
2nd Corinthians 12:7-10
Romans 14:1-8
Romans 11:27-32
Romans 10:9-13,
Romans 10:3
Romans 8:6-14
Romans 8:1-4
Romans 6:14-19
Romans 5:1-9 &17-19
Romans 4:3-5, 16, 24-25
Romans 3:7-12, 20 -end of chapter
Romans 2:11-15

Edited by reelmormon, 08 May 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

We belong to a church that separates itself from the rest of Christianity in it's emphasis on good works.  
What is the real role of Grace and Mercy in the church?

To prepare for this discussion one may want to check out the following video
Brad Wilcox - His Grace is Suffcient   http://byutv.org/wat...57-7000b9945468

One may also want to listen to
Stephen Robinson - "Believing christ"
Robert Milllet - "Grace after all we can do"
Brad and Wendee Wilcox - "faith, an anchor to my soul"

Questions to be discussed
1.) Do you have the same view as Bro. Wilcox in the above video? Did you learn anything from his talk?  what do you see differently?

I listened to the first five minutes of it and then got bored and stopped. I don't feel responsible for, or interested in commenting on, what others have said. I only feel responsible for commenting on what I have accepted as the word of God, and the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you have a question more directly related to that, mention it, and I will be happy to comment on it.

Quote

2.) What does it mean to "do all you can do"?  some say just repent, some say as Bible Dictionary does to "expend one's best efforts", some say that verse is mis understood and the salvation has nothing to do at all with all we can do. Where do you stand?

I presume you are referring to 2 Nephi 25:23, ". . . for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." If that is the case, it would be more helpful if you gave a direct quote, rather than paraphrasing. By "after all we can do" I understand, "in spite of all we can do".

Quote

3.) Is "Grace" undervalued within Mormonism? Should we talk about it more or are we honoring it's proper place already?

I don't think so. Grace is important, but so keeping the commandments of God; and the Church strikes the right balance between the two.

Quote

4.) Because of the teaching within LDS theology that one must "work out our Salvation" that we in some ways are taught to rely on Christ too little and to try to do it ourselves instead of yoking with him?

I don't agree. The Church emphasises the importance of keeping God's commandants, in the same proportion as the scriptures do. The scriptures strike a balance between teaching the importance of grace, and the importance of keeping God's commandments; and the Church maintains the same correct balance of proportion between the two as far as I can see.

Edited by zerinus, 07 May 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Scriptures that are a good reference for this discussion are listed below.  
Reading the following scriptures will do several things
- one if you are a critic who feels the BOM has little to do with Christ.... the BOM scriptures below will be awe inspiring
- if you value the restored goepel at all these scriptures will bless your study and help you better grasp the Doctrine of Christ better then you ever had before... My promise.
- come to understand the pure "Doctrine of Christ" is so interwoven in the New Testament and Book of Mormon as to display how these two stand as witnesses of each other in a major way.  

I dare you to take the next few days and make this list your scripture study for a bit... also take notes... so awesome


2nd Nephi all of chapter 31 with special focus to verse 18-21 then going to Ch 32:6
Helaman 3:35
2nd Nephi 2:3
3rd Nephi 27:16-20
Alma 42:22-24
Alma 24:11
Mosiah 5:15
Jacob 4:7, 12
Ether 12:27
2nd Nephi 25: 23-26, 29-30
Alma 24:11  (goes with 2nd Nephi 25:23)
Moroni 10:32-33
D&C 19:11-18
followed up by D&C 88:21
Alma 5:12-15, 26, 28 through the end
D&C  20:30-34
D&C 137:9
Abraham 3:25
Galatians 3:24
Galatians 2:20-21
2nd Corinthians 12:7-10
Romans 14:1-8
Romans 11:27-32
Romans 10:9-13,
Romans 10:3
Romans 8:6-14
Romans 8:1-4
Romans 6:14-19
Romans 5:1-9 &17-19
Romans 4:3-5, 16, 24-25
Romans 3:7-12, 20 -end of chapter
Romans 2:11-15

How do these relate to the OP? Not sure if you are trying to educate me, or asking for my opinion. I am sure I could do with more gospel education; but for now I am more interested in answering your questions.

[DBMormon]

Our opinions in the gospel must be tied into the Lord's word, felt this list of scriptures would be a blessing as some attempt to answer these questions.  I see Grace as undervalued in the church though I do see a gentle change occuring going in the right direction.

The scriptures help us to see that Grace has a much larger role at least in Paul's mind as well as Nephi's and Moroni's... actually pretty much most of the BOM

[DBMormon]

I personally know several active LDS who see the doing all they can on their own as the way the access Christ's Grace rather then yoking with him and utilizing his Grace every moment to enable them to do more then they can.

[DBMormon]

Quote

I listened to the first five minutes of it and then got bored and stopped. I don't feel responsible for, or interested in commenting on, what others have said. I only feel responsible for commenting on what I have accepted as the word of God, and the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you have a question more directly related to that, mention it, and I will be happy to comment on it.

Sorry it bored you... It is about a half hour long but first 17 minutes are life changing at least they were for me.  Also while you simply want to talk and not interested in listening to his point of view, then you obviously won't be interested in mine as they match.  Listen to the first 17 minutes and then see what you think

if that does nothing for you then this thread will not be up your ally.

Edited by reelmormon, 07 May 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Our opinions in the gospel must be tied into the Lord's word, felt this list of scriptures would be a blessing as some attempt to answer these questions.  I see Grace as undervalued in the church though I do see a gentle change occuring going in the right direction.

The scriptures help us to see that Grace has a much larger role at least in Paul's mind as well as Nephi's and Moroni's... actually pretty much most of the BOM

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

I personally know several active LDS who see the doing all they can on their own as the way the access Christ's Grace rather then yoking with him and utilizing his Grace every moment to enable them to do more then they can.

The fact remains though that the importance of keeping the commandments of God is far more emphasized in scripture than the importance of grace. In fact, it is repentance that is emphasized more than anything else; and repentance, and keeping God's commandments, are equivalents. Grace without repentance will not save anyone; and to repent means to stop doing what is wrong, and start doing what is right--in other words, to keep God's commandments. There is no salvation without repentance, and there is no repentance with keeping God's commandments. Hence, grace without a commitment to keep the commandments of God will not save anyone.

Edited by zerinus, 07 May 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[Mudcat]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

We belong to a church that separates itself from the rest of Christianity in it's emphasis on good works.  
What is the real role of Grace and Mercy in the church?

To prepare for this discussion one may want to check out the following video
Brad Wilcox - His Grace is Suffcient   http://byutv.org/wat...57-7000b9945468

One may also want to listen to
Stephen Robinson - "Believing christ"
Robert Milllet - "Grace after all we can do"
Brad and Wendee Wilcox - "faith, an anchor to my soul"

Questions to be discussed
1.) Do you have the same view as Bro. Wilcox in the above video? Did you learn anything from his talk?  what do you see differently?

2.) What does it mean to "do all you can do"? (2nd Nephi 25:23) some say just repent, some say as Bible Dictionary does to "expend one's best efforts", some say that verse is mis understood and the salvation has nothing to do at all with all we can do.  Where do you stand?

3.) Is "Grace" undervalued within Mormonism?  Should we talk about it more or are we honoring it's proper place already?

4.) Because of the teaching within LDS theology that one must "work out our Salvation" that we in some ways are taught to rely on Christ too little and to try to do it ourselves instead of yoking with him?

I have a bunch more, but we will start there.

Hi RM,

Not to be intrusive, but I think an OP that requires the reader to commit 32 minutes and 5 seconds to be marginally up to speed for discussion is likely to not meet with much in the way of response. I dunno how long the other 3 videos are, but assuming they are equitable in length (a total of 2 hrs. combined, roughly). Well that is quite a bit of time.

I would imagine any responder should be well within their rights for you to be willing to endure 2 hrs. of what they felt were relevant videos of their choosing before you responded.

I am not LDS so it isn't really my game.. just offering some perspective. In advice, maybe you could figure out a way to nutshell your position and see what happens that way.

Though I do confess, after watching the 15 second ad clip that was precursor to the linked video.. I am quite hungry for some "Rhodes" cinnamon rolls.

Regards,

Mudcat

Edited by Mudcat, 07 May 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Sorry it bored you... It is about a half hour long but first 17 minutes are life changing at least they were for me.  Also while you simply want to talk and not interested in listening to his point of view, then you obviously won't be interested in mine as they match.  Listen to the first 17 minutes and then see what you think

if that does nothing for you then this thread will not be up your ally.

I decide whether it is "up my alley" or not, you don't. And I respond to threads and posts based on my own judgements, not somebody else's. You are free to respond or ignore, as you please.

[DBMormon]

If any of us want to gain deep insight into any gospel subject we must put in the time.  I am simply asking for the first 17 minutes of the first video and then the rest are "extra credit".  You say Grace has a back seat to Keeping the commandments and Repentance and at least in regards to keeping commandments I would say that is wrong.  Grace where get you where failing to perfectly keep the commandments will not
We are not saved by keeping the commandments.... we are saved by Grace
"I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace ¹⁹can we gain eternal life." - Elder Holland

[DBMormon]

Grace isn't about keeping commandments, it is about failing to keep commandments and seeing our weakness and turning to Christ for his Grace and Mercy which is accessed by "trying" to do his will by yoking with him and repenting when you fail... and each of us fail daily

Ether 12:27- I give men weakness so that they might be humble
Helaman 3:35 - sanctification comes from yielding ourselves to Christ
Moroni 10:32-33 when we yoke with him we become perfected in Christ then we over the eternities put off all ungodliness eventually to become perfect in Christ

Edited by reelmormon, 07 May 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[DBMormon]

The gospel has never been about keeping commandments.  It has always been about a broken heart and contrite spirit AKA - turning your life over to Christ, AKA the mighty Change....  it is about "trying" to keep the commandments not the actual doing.
Romans 11:6

Mosiah 18 and the sacrament prayer on the bread asks us in our covenant to be willing to do things, not the actual tracking of our doing them.  It is in the willingness and not in the doing.  If salvation is based on doing, we each fail to do all we can do, fail to keep the commandments, each unprofitable servants, "none are righteous, no not one"  Romans 3:10-12

[DBMormon]

God wants us to see just how small we are on our own so that we will see our weakness, humble ourselves, and turn to his Son and the Atonement with it accompanying blessings of grace and mercy

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

If any of us want to gain deep insight into any gospel subject we must put in the time.  I am simply asking for the first 17 minutes of the first video and then the rest are "extra credit".  You say Grace has a back seat to Keeping the commandments and Repentance and at least in regards to keeping commandments I would say that is wrong.  Grace where get you where failing to perfectly keep the commandments will not
We are not saved by keeping the commandments.... we are saved by Grace
"I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace ¹⁹can we gain eternal life." - Elder Holland

You are quoting a one-liner, out of context. The commandment to repent or perish are far more numerous than that. In modern scripture the Lord has commanded, "Say nothing but repentance unto this generation; . . ." (D&C 6:9; 11:9); and from the New Testament comes the words, ". . . except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). If you really want me to dig up all the scriptures and quote them, I will.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Grace isn't about keeping commandments, it is about failing to keep commandments and seeing our weakness and turning to Christ for his Grace and Mercy which is accessed by "trying" to do his will by yoking with him and repenting when you fail... and each of us fail daily

Ether 12:27- I give men weakness so that they might be humble
Helaman 3:35 - sanctification comes from yielding ourselves to Christ
Moroni 10:32-33 when we yoke with him we become perfected in Christ then we over the eternities put off all ungodliness eventually to become perfect in Christ

Grace without repentance will not save anyone, period. That is written all over the scriptures.

[why me]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

We belong to a church that separates itself from the rest of Christianity in it's emphasis on good works.  

Now reelmormon I know that this may be a shock to you but there is another church that stresses good works too. It is the catholic church. Now since there are two churches that basically wear the mantle of truth, the lds through the restoration and the cathoic based on the seccession of popes from Peter, I would say that it is good to be on the side of faith and good works since the protestant sects are protests from the catholic church or other protestant sects.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 07 May 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

The gospel has never been about keeping commandments. . . .

The gospel has always been about keeping the commandments:

John 14:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

D&C 42:
  
29 If thou lovest me thou shalt serve me and keep all my commandments.

D&C 95:
  
12 If you keep not my commandments, the love of the Father shall not continue with you, therefore you shall walk in darkness.

[DBMormon]

Good works are important, but not to save us... As Brad Wilcox says in the video... Our works are not helping us earn heaven, but rather learn heaven.  Repentance at it's core is not about punishment or discipline.... it is about change.  God wants our heart.  
He is our Father and he wants us to be like him. He gives us things to do to help us have experiences that change us, make us humble, meek, lowly.  I am the gardner here and I will cut you down so that I might make you what I want you to be - Hugh B Brown and the currant bush.  Our father only asks a broken heart and contrite spirit, that is what he requires for salvation.  Works are required for a different purpose.  The good works are for us to learn how to be heavenly.  It is not a debate about what we are asked to do but rather why he asks us to do it.  

Why does he ask you to keep commandments?  Why are you asked to do good works?

Edited by reelmormon, 07 May 2012 - 08:16 PM.

[DBMormon]

I absolutely agree that he asks us to keep his commandments.... but they do not save us

"After teaching them some of the great truths of salvation, Abinadi answered his own question: “Salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses” (Mosiah 13:28). Salvation is not in works--not even in those revealed of God--but in Christ and his atonement."
Bruce R McConkie - What think ye of Salvation by Grace

Salvation is in the Atonement not in Works of any kind
The Works are for us...
Our heart yielding to him is what he requires for salvation.

where did I get my weaknesses?  From God Ether 12:27
Who fixes my weaknesses?  God
Only he has power to change me.... Only his Grace and Mercy enable me to be more then an unprofitable servant; Only yoking with Christ and borrowing his perfection can I put off all unrighteousness.    Too many LDS trying to work their way to heaven.... I will put my trust in his everlasting grace, try to do my best but leave my yoke by the wayside and take his yoke, for his is easy and light.

Edited by reelmormon, 07 May 2012 - 08:22 PM.