46 replies to this topic

[BlueDreams]

blackstrap, on 06 May 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Many people isolate themselves within the greater culture and congregate in ghettos to do so. The current situations in Florida and Virginia have much to do with race and little to do with culture.

Though this occurs, it's harder to maintain beyond the 2nd generation.   For example my step-dad is 2nd or 3rd gen american (depending the side you look at). All of his siblings have married white. On my bio-dad's side, he's 1st gen american (nigerian born). He married another nigerian-american, but most of his children are mixed, minus the youngest 2. The sibs that are old enough (Me, my bio-dad's son, my mom's son, who's half Moroccan) have no preference on partners based on race. I'm currently interested in a man who's mixed native/white.  Isolation rarely lasts. Most (brown) people end up mixing, especially in places where their minority group is highly underrepresented and they're past the 1st gen. A good example would be, say, the U.S. LDS population. Over half of my brown friends in the church who're married have married outside of their ethnic/racial group. The next generation will probably be even more likely to do so (especially since around 50% of children under the age of 5 are an ethnic minority of some sort and there's a huge increase of mixed racial population under the age of 18).


The original quote is largely irrelevant for today. "Cultural background" would be more apt....but then again, just about everybody nowadays will have some cultural differences.


With luv,
BD

Edited by BlueDreams, 07 May 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[David T]

blackstrap, on 07 May 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

Some feel that SWK's statement was politically incorrect,but was it wrong?

As council for today, with 'racial background' being unqualified and highly charged? Yes. It's not helpful or useful today with that language, and certainly has the ability to cause misunderstanding and harm.

[thesometimesaint]

KtG:

Sociologically speaking we're more likely to marry the girl/boy next door than we are to marry someone from accross the country. I don't believe we can arbitarily toss out commonalities, just because we don't like the implications. That being said race will continue to be a diminishing factor in marriage, but will never at least in this life, be totally eliminated.

[BlueDreams]

thesometimesaint, on 07 May 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

KtG:

Sociologically speaking we're more likely to marry the girl/boy next door than we are to marry someone from accross the country. I don't believe we can arbitarily toss out commonalities, just because we don't like the implications. That being said race will continue to be a diminishing factor in marriage, but will never at least in this life, be totally eliminated.

Even today??? Personally I know very few people who've married people from the same state, let alone town, and plenty who married cross country. Mobility is very common nowadays.

With luv,
BD

[Log]

I wonder what the divorce rate on those long-distance hookups is.

[thesometimesaint]

Bluedreams:

Even today. Of course it is not the literal girl/boy next door, at least not most of the time. It is the same socioeconomic strata that they grewup in that tend to intermarry. IE Neighborhood. The poor man from South Central LA isn't likely to marry the rich woman from La Jolla(The two cities are physically about 100 miles apart, but economically they are on different continents), and there is even less social mobility now, in the US, than there was even a few years ago.

http://www.msnbc.msn...families-grows/

http://andrewleigh.o...ityMobility.pdf

[BlueDreams]

thesometimesaint, on 07 May 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Bluedreams:

Even today. Of course it is not the literal girl/boy next door, at least not most of the time. It is the same socioeconomic strata that they grewup in that tend to intermarry. IE Neighborhood. The poor man from South Central LA isn't likely to marry the rich woman from La Jolla(The two cities are physically about 100 miles apart, but economically they are on different continents), and there is even less social mobility now, in the US, than there was even a few years ago.

Ahh, I was wondering about that, but because you mentioned accross the country (ie. geography it threw me).

Still divorce rates really isn't a good assesment for marital advice....expecially for the church. Last time I checked my singles ward they're strong encouraging marrying young. Yet the stats about couples who marry young are quite clear: 20-25 yr olds marrying have a 60% divorce rate compared to 50% for all other age groups.

Plus many of the differences have less to do with race and more to do with socioeconomic standing, what races are involved, and the race of each gender. This indicates to me at least, that race in and of itself, is not a good determinining factor to likelihod to divorce.


With luv,
BD

Edited by BlueDreams, 07 May 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[calmoriah]

David T, on 07 May 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

I'm guessing the reference is the current Aaronic Priesthood Manual, taught to our young men today, which does say, citing President Kimball, "



I'm certainly voting for either a removal of that President Kimball text completely, or at the very least, a striking of the 'racial' and replacing it with the bracketed [cultural]. It blows my mind that this still hanging out there, in current in-use curriculum, using the term 'racial', in 2012.

Definitely needs to be updated just like the Eternal Marriage manual (whatever they call it).  Didn't they just do the YWs manuals?  If so, maybe the AP manuals are being worked on as we speak.

[bluebell]

calmoriah, on 07 May 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Definitely needs to be updated just like the Eternal Marriage manual (whatever they call it).  Didn't they just do the YWs manuals?  If so, maybe the AP manuals are being worked on as we speak.

We're still using the old YW's manuals but apparently new ones are supposed to be coming.  For now, they have included a supplemental part you can get off of LDS.org  which consists of a lot of different conference talks on the topic being taught.

[Log]

BlueDreams, on 07 May 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Still divorce rates really isn't a good assesment for marital advice....expecially for the church. Last time I checked my singles ward they're strong encouraging marrying young. Yet the stats about couples who marry young are quite clear: 20-25 yr olds marrying have a 60% divorce rate compared to 50% for all other age groups.

What is the comparative divorce rate for those same age groups who marry in the Temple?

[calmoriah]

Quote

[I]nterracial couples may have to work through different cultural assumptions and expectations

Since it is most like the cultural aspect that is the greatest problem, why not simply say that it is cultural?

If the study did not separate out internal problems based on differences in background and problems resulting from prejudice to interracial marriages, then I don't see it having much value at giving us specific info about the problems interracial marriages have over and beyond intercultural marriages.

One of the last times this topic came up someone posted a study that did look specifically at the interracial aspect, IIRC, and showed that at least for most of the US this was not a problem in and of itself.  I would assume there are still parts of the US and other parts of the world that have higher rates of racism so couples from these areas planning on living in these areas should realistically anticipate problems.

I wish the manuals were specific about why there may be problems and include that which is most likely to affect all marriages---the family dynamics....saying something along the lines of 'attitudes of others impact your relationship, while your future spouse is marrying you, not your family, you both need to be aware that negative attitudes can create conflict when the family gathers, which is often at the most important but also most stressful times of your relationship; you need to agree at the beginning of the relationship how each will protect the spouse from criticism from their own family and friends, putting the marriage relationship before all others; if you don't think you can do this (imagine yourself telling your parents to back off if they making remarks about how your spouse treats your kids), then you need to rethink the marriage'.

When it comes to race, it could be written up as an ethnic issue (which covers a wider range of potential conflict) and be specific about how criticism, racism and general prejudice may occur and raise the family stress levels and that this may vary in their life due to moving into areas with greater prejudices and it should include a discussion on how to recognize how stressful this may be to the partner who is seen as inferior by bigots so that the other does not just brush it off with 'just don't pay attention to the idiots' approach, etc. as well as discussing up front how (and in some cases even if they have the emotional strength) they will handle the issue when it arise with the children, who may end up being bullied, ostracized, etc. due to their mixed race (depending on where they live, this can unfortunately still be a problem).

I think if problems are not only identified, but discussed as how it can be effectively handled within a interracial/intercultural relationship, it would remove much of the potential of inferring of prejudice because it would show an acceptance of such a couple even while pointing out the difficulties that can arise from such a relationship due to cultural attitudes.

Obviously needs to be better written, but you get my drift.  I think while it is important to bring attention to potential issues like cultural background and such, it would be more helpful to be specific about why these are problems and about how to deal with them.  I find the marriage manual a bit too vague.  It has been some time since I looked at it in detail, perhaps there has been such improvements but last I looked at it, it was rather thin, it appears to be more of a 'ideas' to talk about than an instruction manual.

Edited by calmoriah, 07 May 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[BlueDreams]

Log, on 07 May 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

What is the comparative divorce rate for those same age groups who marry in the Temple?

Not a clue....I've seen various results. But then again, what's the rate of divorce of interracial temple marriages too? Would there be a difference of those who marry first in the temple or are sealed later on? There's not really a comprehensive study on it at all.

Since the original stats discuss marriages in general I stuck with that. It wasn't a critique of marrying young (weirds me out when you're under 20....heaven knows I wasn't ready at 19, but to each their own)....but rather justifying the continuing use of the Benson quote with divorce stats.

With luv,
BD

Edited by BlueDreams, 07 May 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[thesometimesaint]

Bluedreams:

Every study that I'm aware of shows mixed race couples fair worse than same race couples. It is getting better but still too many.

Ps. Temple divorce is rare. Studies I've seen show a less than 10% rate. In 2002 the divorce rate in the US was around 30% while the mixed race rate was aound 45%(don't remember the exact stats). Also while the age of marriage is increasing slightly still the vast majority of marriage is in the 20-25
year olds group. Teens don't fair too well, probably has more to with maturity and earning capacity than age per say. My wife was 19 and I was 20. 40 years later we're still going strong, but statistically speaking we're a rarity.

Edited by thesometimesaint, 07 May 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[BlueDreams]

TSS:

THe ones I read most recently break up the data by which race, gender, and socioeconomic status. I read it a while back and can't find that specific study. So here's a summary from a another one I found:
"Family Growth (NSFG).⁷ A subsequent study which analyzed 2002 NSFG data found that “although interracial marriages overall are more vulnerable to divorce, this reflects the experience of some but not all couples.” It found that after 10 years of marriage, interracial marriages that are most vulnerable to divorce involve white females and non-White males (with the exception of white females/ Hispanic white males) relative to white/white couples. Conversely, there is little or no difference in divorce rates among white men/non-white women couples, and white men/black women couples are actually substantially less likely than white/white couples to divorce by the 10th year of marriage.⁸
Another study using 1990 to 2001 data from the Survey of Income and Program Participation (SIPP) suggests that on the whole, interracial marriages are less stable than same-race/ethnicity marriages, but marital dissolution was found to be strongly associated with the race or ethnicity of the individuals in the union. The authors found that “the results failed to provide evidence that interracial marriage per se is associated with an elevated risk of marital dissolution.”⁹ Mixed marriages involving blacks and whites were the least stable followed by Hispanics-white couples, whereas mixed marriages involving Asians and whites were even more stable than same-race white marriages."
http://www.pewsocial...ntermarriage/2/


A few other sites pointed out that the stats were higher mostly when the couple was a nonwhite male and white female. Another one I read pointed out that with black/white couples, if you remove age or class level as factors it becomes fairly similar. And as the one survey above mentioned some interracial combinations actually have lower divorce rates. All of them pointed out that there were far more significant correlates to divorce such as education level and age of when they married.

Yes, most studies indicate higher divorce rates. But the devil is in the details.

With luv,
BD

[Log]

BlueDreams, on 07 May 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Not a clue....I've seen various results. But then again, what's the rate of divorce of interracial temple marriages too? Would there be a difference of those who marry first in the temple or are sealed later on?

From what I've seen, yes, there is a difference between temple marriages and civil marriages which are later sealed.  But those would be the stats of interest.

Edited by Log, 07 May 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[calmoriah]

Quote

A few other sites pointed out that the stats were higher mostly when the couple was a nonwhite male and white female.

It seems to me that this points to a cultural issue that influences expectations about how men and women interrelate rather than a specific issue with race.

[thesometimesaint]

Bluedreams:

Of course individual couples may have a different experience. However the status are always a percentage. It's like claiming all Indians walk in single file I saw one do it.
I never said race was the only factor. I don't even believe it is a major factor, economics is a much much greater factor, but I can't dismiss it as not a factor either. Maybe someday it will be a nonfactor.

[blackstrap]

As Russel Peters ( comedian) said, soon everyone will be ' beige" .He is a Canadian of East Indian heritage. Should that happen,there will still be differences with respect to wealth and education etc.

[BlueDreams]

thesometimesaint, on 07 May 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Bluedreams:

Of course individual couples may have a different experience. However the status are always a percentage. It's like claiming all Indians walk in single file I saw one do it.
I never said race was the only factor. I don't even believe it is a major factor, economics is a much much greater factor, but I can't dismiss it as not a factor either. Maybe someday it will be a nonfactor.

I wasn't talking about individuals. I was talking more specific stats from the overarching generalized stats. The specific stats, as Cal pointed out, indicate to other factors (like culture) being more important to the divorce rate of interracial marriages than race in and of itself.

Because of the nuances and far more pressing factors around it, I'd state it's really not that important. Make sure both families don't have some weird racist ideas about the prospective spouse, talk to the interest about it, and move on. The only time race should be a factor is when it is coupled with mixed cultural expectations IMO.



With luv,
BD

[thesometimesaint]

Bluedreams:

Unfortunately race and cultural expections are closely related. All fathers are expected to give their sons the "Birds and Bees" talk. It is black mother's who give their sons "The Talk' about interacting with white authority figures. I see that as a greater stress producer with mixed race parents than a same race one.

Not being black, or having a black spouse, that may be a projection on my part, but I don't believe so.