When Were Bom Land Prophecies Fulfilled?

[selek1]

If you would like to check my debate or logic skills open a new thread. Speak to the subject matter or move on.

Silly me- I thought you were here to discuss. Seems to me you would prefer an elevated pulpit and a captive audience to which you can lecture without fear of contradiction.

Actually, my complain speaks directly to the topic at hand.

But since you seem unable or willing to answer my good faith question in like fashion, I'll provide you with the answer.

The problems with the statement "Some people believe that the Book of Mormon was written by fairies and delivered to Joseph Smith in a series of enchanted mushroom cups. This belief has serious implications about the credibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." are numerous.

Let's begin with the phrase "Some people believe".

Who are these people? How well informed are they? Do we have any reason to take their understanding seriously?

Your statement "these theorists" is equally problematic, and for the same reasons.

Which theorists? How well informed are they about the subject matter? Upon what evidence do they base their conclusions? Do we have any reason to take their understanding seriously or to dismiss it out of hand?

Moving on, we must acknowledge that "written by fairies and delivered to Joseph Smith in a series of enchanted mushroom cups." is an extraordinarily unusual position.

None of the extant accounts of the discovery and translation of the Book of Mormon- whether written by friends of the Church or by critics- looks anything like this assertion.

It is simply and irredeemably "off the reservation" as far as informed discussion about the Book of Mormon goes.

It is an outlier that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Your statement that "these theorists" tend to "strip God of any credit" is fatally flawed for the same reasons.

I'm familiar with the arguments and theories of most of the Mesoamerican theorists and apologists who frequent these boards, FAIR, and a handful of other sources. None of them attempt to "strip God of credit" or pretend that Heavenly Father was somehow divorced from the events of the Book or Mormon.

In addition to being of ambiguous attribution, your claim bears NO resemblance to the arguments put forth here or elsewhere by serious advocates of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon.

Yes- you dropped a couple of names early in the thread- but you haven't demonstrated any link between those individuals and the position you are claiming they espouse.

So....why should we take your word for what they believe? You've already demonstrated that you are hostile to their conclusions. So why should we assume that you are representing them accurately?

Your knee-jerk indignation at being asked to provide the evidence is also troubling.

If you are representing them accurately, the proof should be readily at hand. If you are acting in good faith, why are you hostile to demonstrating their statements first hand?

Finally, we come to the statement "This belief has serious implications about the credibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

This statement is a bit of throw-away editorializing, and perhaps even of hack yellow journalism. It is intended to draw the reader into a conclusion.

IF Mormons in general (or even a sizeable number) believed that the Book of Mormon was delivered by mushroom-bearing fairies, it might represent a question of credibility due to the complete lack of evidence. But it is not demonstrated that this is the casem merely implied.

Your throw away "very troubling" fails the same test. If it were true, then yes, it might be troubling. But you havent demonstrated that it is true- you've merely asserted it and tried to blackmail us into agreeing with you.

Absent any proof of your claim- which you've steadfastly refused to supply- you've merely set up (and consequently mocked) a strawman.

You have not demonstrated which theorists (if any) actually hold such a position, let alone why they are wrong to do so.

You've merely offered some moral preening and psuedo intellectual "tut-tutting"- but nothing of factual substance.

As such, it looks less and less like an attempt at actual discussion and more like an attempt at well-poisoning against these unnamed "theorists".

Edited May 4, 2012 by selek1

[DWhitmer]

On to the next land prophecy - Choice Above All Other Lands

I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands. -1 Ne.2.20

land which is choice above all other lands - 1 Ne.13.30

a land which is choice above all other lands - 2 Ne.1.5

a land which is choice above all the earth -Eth.1.38

a land which is choice above all the lands of the earth -Eth.1.42

land of promise, which was choice above all other lands -Eth.2.7

this is a land which is choice above all other lands -Eth.2.10

for it shall be a land choice above all other lands -Eth.2.15

which was choice above all other lands -Eth.9.20

they were in a land that was choice above all lands -Eth.10.28

a choice land above all other lands -Eth.13.2

How are the lands in your model "choice above all other lands"?

Here are some examples of what can make a land choice, as we find in western New York:

1. All seas are fresh water.

2. The Sea that Divides the Land, i.e. the Sea South is elevated and are wetlands that naturally hold and filter water, which produce rivers and streams down to the Sea North providing a gravity fed, filter water system by which ALL homes and vineyards had perpetual, clean, running water.

3. Hidden. Because they were hidden, they were never invaded or looted from without of their natural resources.

4. Seneca Oil, poured from the earth providing fuel for cooking, heating, lamps, etc.

5. Natural gas emitted from the earth continuous in several villages allowing 24/7 lighting for entire villages.

6. Nearly unlimited hardwood forests provided ample material for cities and temples, etc.

7. The soil was and is used for large scale wheat, grapes, and fruit trees producton.

Of course modern day production of cement and precious metals are numerous.

[DWhitmer]

pontificating...

Is there a CFR request or not?

[volgadon]

Is there a CFR request or not?

There is still one in the WoW thread.

[selek1]

What is alarming to me is the tendency of these theorists to strip God of any credit...very troubling.

Fine. Since that seems to be the only way you'll support your allegations....

Call For References:

Which "theorists" are trying to strip God of credit for Book of Mormon events?

Which geographic theory of the Book of Mormon do they support? Local? Hemispheric? Heartland? Mesoamerican?

Provide their statements to that effect, not your own.

While you're at it, you can answer Volga's CFR, as well. To whit:

Most Mormons are ignorant of the fact that most Mormon prophets either espoused or adhered to a vegetarian diet.

Again- a factual citation (prefereably from the Prophets themselves) rather than your own "interpretation"- is required to answer the CFR.

Edited May 4, 2012 by selek1

[DWhitmer]

There is still one in the WoW thread.

You were serious? It will be provided, my apologies.

[Duncan]

I just sent to the store and I found both milk and honey there so sorry, Canada is the promised land. Besides, we don't have a king. We have a queen.

Plus Rick Mercer, the Beachcombers, Fraggle Rock,Tommy Douglas and John Candy-how can anyone not love John Candy?

[volgadon]

You were serious? It will be provided, my apologies.

I like my humour dry and dead-pan, but not that dry.

Edited May 4, 2012 by volgadon

[DWhitmer]

Call For References:

Which "theorists" are trying to strip God of credit for Book of Mormon events?

Which geographic theory of the Book of Mormon do they support? Local? Hemispheric? Heartland? Mesoamerican?

Provide their statements to that effect, not your own.

[Duncan]

I had not known the latter was Canadian- though that does explain to which queen Freedom was referring.

I withdraw my earlier statement calling for moderation and now insist that SAC nuke Winnipeg on principle.

the SAC? does that stand for Sack Anything Canadian? besides if you have ever been to Winnipeg, the Jets fans would take you out -it's just a fact

[volgadon]

This thread very rapidly deteriorated into a remake of Canadian Bacon.

[selek1]

Plus Rick Mercer, the Beachcombers, Fraggle Rock,Tommy Douglas and John Candy-how can anyone not love John Candy?

Okay. Fraggle Rock and John Candy almost make up for Beiber (especially when I've been told I bear an uncanny resemblance to Uncle Buck).

But that doesn't justify inflicting Avril Lavigne, William Shatner, Tommy Chong, and Peter Jennings on a defenseless people protected only by Phyllis Diller and Milton Burle in drag.

[selek1]

http://www.mormondia...__p__1209119525

No good. Cold Steel's arguments say nothing about "stripping God" of any sort of "credit".

Try again.

As stated the first time, you need to show how their statements make this claim, not wave your hand and claim it's self-evident.

Edited May 4, 2012 by selek1

[selek1]

the SAC? does that stand for Sack Anything Canadian? besides if you have ever been to Winnipeg, the Jets fans would take you out -it's just a fact

Strategic Air Command.

You know- the Air Farce guys with the big airplanes and the bombs?

Besides, they'll be too focussed on the blood on the ice to deal with the inbound airstrike.

[DWhitmer]

No good. Cold Steel's arguments say nothing about "stripping God" of any sort of "credit". Try again. As stated the first time, you need to show how their statements make this claim, not wave your hand and claim it's self-evident.

That's what I thought. I stand by position and until you can show one Mesoapologist who does claim the earthquakes at the coming of Jesus were supernatural, you are spitting in the wind.

[DWhitmer]

This thread very rapidly deteriorated into a remake of Canadian Bacon.

Your reputation precedes you. Now you understand why I take your CFR's with a grain of salt. But hey, I don't come here to obfuscate.

[Freedom]

Plus Rick Mercer, the Beachcombers, Fraggle Rock,Tommy Douglas and John Candy-how can anyone not love John Candy?

And lets not forget the James T Kirk and Captain Packard. And Celine Deon. And me. Well, I invade it once/week to get gas and milk. And there was that two year prolonged occupation in the 80's when I wondered around California with a threatening name tag.

[DWhitmer]

I like my humour dry and dead-pan, but not that dry.

I posted the CFR's on the Word of Wisdom. Let me know your thoughts.

[selek1]

And lets not forget the James T Kirk and Captain Packard. And Celine Deon. And me. Well, I invade it once/week to get gas and milk. And there was that two year prolonged occupation in the 80's when I wondered around California with a threatening name tag.

Patrick Stewart is English, not Canadian.

[selek1]

That's what I thought. I stand by position and until you can show one Mesoapologist who does claim the earthquakes at the coming of Jesus were supernatural, you are spitting in the wind.

In other words, "You got nothing."

They didn't say it- nor anything like unto it, and so you felt the need to "extrapolate" it on their behalf.

You're arguing from silence, not reason.

Contrary to what you're implying, LDS thought does not assume "supernatural" automagically means "unnatural".

We do not assume that the Lord's actions must exist outside of and separate from nature.

Despite your claim that you're not "here to obfuscate", but you are rapidly reinforcing my first impressions regarding a casual and at-arm's-length relationship to honesty, if only of the intellectual sort.

Edited May 4, 2012 by selek1

[Calm]

Patrick Stewart is English, not Canadian.

Captain Von Trapp, Christopher Plummer is Canadian.

[selek1]

Captain Von Trapp, Christopher Plummer is Canadian.

As is Geneviève Bujold, (who was originally slated to play Captain Janeway).

This does not, of course, help Canada's defense.

Some little known hack named "Raymond Burr" was also Canadian.

Jim Carrey goes in the "+" column.

Kim Cattrall does not.

Elisha Cuthbert........uhhhhh.....have to think about that one.

Nicole deBoer (Lieutenant Ezri Dax) (+)

Colin Ferguson (-)

Glenn Ford (+)

Brendan Fraser (+)

Robert Goulet (?)

Lorne Greene (Commander Adama, Ben Cartwright) (+)

Graham Greene (+)

Rachel McAdams (Irene Adler in the new Sherlock Holmes movies) (+)

Patrick McKenna (hmmm....that one could go either way)

Steve Smith (Red Green. Definitely a plus in the Canadian account).

Sir John Neville (Baron Munchausen, Sir Isaac Newton in ST:TNG) (+)

Leslie Neilsen (in nearly everything- we might just spare Canada for his sake alone)

Grace Park (Sharon Valerii in the new BSG and someone else in the Hawaii 5-0) (+)

Mary Pickford (+)

Jason Priestly (-)

Donelly Rhodes (Doc Cottle in BSG) (+)

Seth Rogen (we might nuke Canada just because of him)

Jay Silverheels (+)

Jewel Staite (Kaywinnett Lee Fry).

....

Okay.

.....

Well, that decides things firmly in Canada's favor.

No loyal Browncoat can raise a hand to Kaylee.

[Anijen]

Your reputation precedes you. Now you understand why I take your CFR's with a grain of salt. But hey, I don't come here to obfuscate.

Volgadon's rep is very secure on these boards. He is highly intelligent and always gives quality citations to his posts. You on the other hand telling Volgadon that you take his his CFRs with a grain of salt is an insult. Your citations lack any substance at all.

I have a question for you; do you believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet of God?

[DWhitmer]

Volgadon's...always gives quality citations to his posts...insult...Your citations lack any substance at all.

What did you say pot?

Getting back to the topic, the splitting of the land prophecy was given as a sign, thus, it would be somewhere highly visible, not overrun by jungle:

Edited May 4, 2012 by DWhitmer

[volgadon]

What did you say kettle?

It is the kettle in the proverb who is called black by the pot...