151 replies to this topic

[mfbukowski]

DWhitmer, on 04 May 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

No one was ever moved away from danger by soft talking and I want to see as few Mormons going to hell for the mistreatment of the BoM. Sorry for trying - not.

Great argument and very convincing.  

Listen- I have a great idea to save us all some trouble.  Just copy the following sentence into the clipboard on your computer, and every time you want to make a comment, just hit "paste", and post it!   It will be a great time saver for us all!!

Here is the sentence:

"I am right and you are wrong."

(But remove the quotes- ok?)  That's all your arguments amount to, and it will just make it much easier for everyone.

Incidentally, if that line I quoted above does not get you banned for "preaching" and "proselytizing" I don't know what will.   You sound like a born again fundie to me.

[DWhitmer]

selek1, on 04 May 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

In your opinion.

The Lord, my Bishop, reason, and my conscience disagree with your assessment.

You forgot to mention J.Smith. Your ignorance is rabid, the above quotes confirm top leaders are the worse offenders of the WoW and if your "Bishop" were a true follower of the BoM, he would not be your Bishop. Think for yourself, this is not what some Old Testament wannabe High Priest immitator thinks, it's what God thinks and I strongly encourage to come out from the church wide curse and be a true follower of the record you claim to believe.

[mfbukowski]

DWhitmer, on 04 May 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Looks like the Mesoapologists here don't want to be embarrassed by the discussion on the Fulfilled Land Prophecies page and have banned this poster. Sad.

http://www.mormondia...cies-fulfilled/

You are so off you are funny.

I couldn't care less where the BOM took place

[mfbukowski]

DWhitmer, on 04 May 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

You forgot to mention J.Smith. Your ignorance is rabid, the above quotes confirm top leaders are the worse offenders of the WoW and if your "Bishop" were a true follower of the BoM, he would not be your Bishop. Think for yourself, this is not what some Old Testament wannabe High Priest immitator thinks, it's what God thinks and I strongly encourage to come out from the church wide curse and be a true follower of the record you claim to believe.

Convincing.   Very convincing.   Halleluiah brother.

[DWhitmer]

mfbukowski, on 04 May 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Listen- I have a great idea...

No offense mfbukowski but the time is short. Think of it, Mormons don't even understand the timing of the Rapture let alone the curse they are under for not following the BoM.

[DWhitmer]

mfbukowski, on 04 May 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

I couldn't care less where the BOM took place

You always say that and no wonder if you regurgitate what's taught at church. They don't respect the land boundaries or her prophecies and promises so why would you? It requires someone not under the church wide curse to see through the fog.

In a nutshell, the where is everything because that's where the promises are! If BoM lands are in western New York then that is where the New Jerusalem prophesied would be set up, not Missouri. See how misdirected LDS are? You're leaders claim Jesus won't/can't return until what Joe attempted in Independence is fulfilled. No wonder Mormons haven't a clue what the Rapture is or when it will take place. They will be left behind.

[selek1]

mfbukowski, on 04 May 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

That is the precise crux of every philosophical argument!

Quoted For Truth.

Reasonable minds can (and most often do) disagree.  That's one of the beauties of Free Agency, IMO.

It is one of the primary means by which we develop the talents (and critical thinking skills) with which Heavenly Father imbued us.

Of course, denouncing someone as a "heretic", "anti-Book of Mormon", or "unGodly" because they do not accept a privileged special pleading strikes me as the antithesis of critical thinking.

As someone else has stated, believing wrongly does not necessarily disqualify us from the blessings of Heaven.

Damning someone else because they do not agree with your personal interpretation, on the other hand, smacks of pride, dogmatism and unrighteous dominion.

It assumes- without evidence- that the Saints have transgressed the warnings given in D&C 84 and "treated lightly the things [we] have received."

It is pride and arrogant assumption that they alone are righteous while all others around them are under condemnation.

[mfbukowski]

DWhitmer, on 04 May 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

You always say that and no wonder if you regurgitate what's taught at church. They don't respect the land boundaries or her prophecies and promises so why would you? It requires someone not under the church wide curse to see through the fog.

In a nutshell, the where is everything because that's where the promises are! If BoM lands are in western New York then that is where the New Jerusalem prophesied would be set up, not Missouri. See how misdirected LDS are? You're leaders claim Jesus won't/can't return until what Joe attempted in Independence is fulfilled. No wonder Mormons haven't a clue what the Rapture is or when it will take place. They will be left behind.

Turn up your hearing aid.

"I don't care where the BOM lands are" = "They could have been western NY as well as anywhere"  And since you haven't told us anything, I guess it's on your head if we go wrong.  

[mfbukowski]

DWhitmer, on 04 May 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

No offense mfbukowski but the time is short. Think of it, Mormons don't even understand the timing of the Rapture let alone the curse they are under for not following the BoM.

Mods, more preaching

[DWhitmer]

selek1, on 04 May 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Reasonable minds can (and most often do) disagree.  That's one of the beauties of Free Agency, IMO.

That's precisely why God in is His wonder allowed a Second Witness to come forth in support of the gospel His son taught. Unfortunately J.Smith changed revelations and neglected the BoM thereby mudding the original gospel.

If you take the two records as originally planned, there is little to disagree on, the gospel it contains is THAT simple.

Edited by DWhitmer, 04 May 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[mfbukowski]

selek1, on 04 May 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Quoted For Truth.

Reasonable minds can (and most often do) disagree.  That's one of the beauties of Free Agency, IMO.

It is one of the primary means by which we develop the talents (and critical thinking skills) with which Heavenly Father imbued us.

Of course, denouncing someone as a "heretic", "anti-Book of Mormon", or "unGodly" because they do not accept a privileged special pleading strikes me as the antithesis of critical thinking.

As someone else has stated, believing wrongly does not necessarily disqualify us from the blessings of Heaven.

Damning someone else because they do not agree with your personal interpretation, on the other hand, smacks of pride, dogmatism and unrighteous dominion.

It assumes- without evidence- that the Saints have transgressed the warnings given in D&C 84 and "treated lightly the things [we] have received."

It is pride and arrogant assumption that they alone are righteous while all others around them are under condemnation.

[volgadon]

DWhitmer, on 03 May 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Joseph Smith Jr. - Prophet

"And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands." (Joseph Smith Translation of Gen. 9.5)

No sign of vegetarianism. Try the preceding verses. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
But, the blood of all flesh which I have given you for meat, shall be shed upon the ground, which taketh life thereof, and the blood ye shall not eat.

Quote

Hyrum Smith

"let them be sparing of the life of animals; it is pleasing saith the Lord that flesh be used only in times of winter, or of famine - and why to be used in famine? Because all domesticated animals would naturally die, and may as well be made use of by man, as not." (Times and Seasons 3:799-801)

Quote

We also know from the historical record that there were a number of brethren very close to the prophet such as Fredrick G. Williams, Thomas B. Marsh and Willard Richards, who were of the Samuel Thomson School of Healing. Which school endorsed the use of herbs instead of medicines and the abstinence of alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee, stimulants and excessive meat eating. (Paul H. Peterson, BYU Thesis, An Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom, Aug. 1972; Bush, p. 92)]

Excessive meat eating.

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Joseph F. Smith - Prophet

Joseph F. Smith was the son of Hyrum Smith.

"I do not believe any man should kill animals or birds unless he 'needs' them for food…I think it is wicked for men to thirst in their souls to kill almost everything which possesses animal life. It is wrong, and I have been surprised at prominent men whom I have seen whose souls seemed to be athirst for the shedding of animal blood. They go off hunting deer, antelope, elk, anything they can find, and what for? "Just for the fun of it!' I am a firm believer…in the simple words of one of the poets 'Take not away the life you cannot give, for all things have an equal right to live." (Joseph F. Smith, "The Destruction of Animal Life," Juvenile Instructor, 48:309)

"The unnecessary destruction of life is a distinct spiritual loss to the human family. Men cannot worship the Creator and look with careless indifference upon the creation. The love of all life helps man to the enjoyment of a better life. It exalts the spiritual nature of those in need of divine favor…love of nature is akin to the love of God, the two are inseparable." (Gerald Jones, Concern for Animals as Manifest in Five American Churches, PhD Diss., BYU, 1972, p. 107-8; Juvenile Instructor April, 1918)

I've used these quotes when discussing with a mission companion hunting as a sport. He thought hunting wonderful, I didn't. These quotes address the wanton destruction of animal life for fun, they aren't really about vegetarianism.

Edited by volgadon, 04 May 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[mfbukowski]

DWhitmer, on 04 May 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

That's precisely why God in is His wonder allowed a Second Witness to come forth in support of the gospel His son taught. Unfortunately J.Smith changed revelations and neglected the BoM thereby mudding the original gospel.

If you take the two records as originally planned, there is little to disagree on, the gospel it contains is THAT simple.

Either Joseph was a prophet or he wasn't.   He brought forth the BOM and immediately became an apostate.   Uh huh.

And God did this to confuse us, right?

Edited by mfbukowski, 04 May 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[selek1]

DWhitmer, on 04 May 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

You forgot to mention J.Smith.

Ironically, no I didn't.

But as I understand the rules of stewardship and Priesthood delegation, it is not up to Joseph to vouch for me at this time.

That calling and responsibility lie with me, the Lord, and my Bishop.

Quote

Your ignorance is rabid, the above quotes confirm top leaders are the worse offenders of the WoW

Not quite. The quotes above suggest that the Prophets held a particular view of the Word of Wisdom and adjusted their lifestyles in accordance with that view.

It is you who reads apostacy into a difference of opinion and spins contention and dissension over matters both trivial and insubstantial.

Quote

and if your "Bishop" were a true follower of the BoM, he would not be your Bishop.

  There's that dogmatic assertion, again.

And yet you have no authority to pass judgement over who is or is not a "true follower" of the Book of Mormon.

You do not know me.  You do not know my Bishop.

And you are, therefore in no position to judge or condemn either of us based on your own special pleading.

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Think for yourself

No one who is familiar with me- either on this board or in real life- can credibly accuse me of being an unthinking follower.

Quote

, this is not what some Old Testament wannabe High Priest immitator thinks, it's what God thinks and I strongly encourage to come out from the church wide curse and be a true follower of the record you claim to believe.

And yet you have no special knowledge or authority from which to lecture us on "what God thinks".

You have only your opinion and a few cherry-picked verses which do not say what you pretend they do.

I have my opinion, the weight of Scripture, and the confirmation not only of the Holy Ghost but of millions of Mormons who understand these things just as I do.

[volgadon]

Quote

Joseph Fielding Smith - Prophet

He is one of the sons of Joseph F. Smith and grandson of Hyrum Smith.

"My husband doesn't eat meat. We eat lots of fruits and vegetables." (ERA 73:59, April, 1970)

"President Joseph Fielding Smith is said to have a 'disdain of meat and love of vegetables.'" (BYU Daily Universe, May 6, 1971, p.1)

See also the complete article "Is It a Sin To Kill Wantonly?" (ERA, Aug. 1961)

Ok.

Quote

David A. Smith - Presiding Bishopric

Younger brother of Joseph Fielding Smith, grandson of Hyrum Smith.

"Every man in this building yesterday morning was, I believe, an observer of the Word of Wisdom as far as it pertains to the use of wine, strong drink, and tobacco…but I am not so sure that we all understand this revelation in its reference to other matters of equal importance…stop eating meat!" (CR April 1930, p. 83)

You have taken some liberties with your ellipsis. Distorting the quote really does you no favours. "Medical science definitely knows that meat diet is harmful and dangerous in the presence of a number of diseases." Dr. Herser, a man of international reputation has said, "That in all cases of chronic rheumatism, his main advice and treatment is, simply stop eating meat!"

Quote

George Albert Smith - Prophet

George was the cousin of Joseph Fielding Smith.

"In the summer he eats no meat, and even in the winter months he eats very little." (ERA Apr. 1950, p.287)

Yet he did eat meat and was fond of poultry.

Quote

Brigham Young - Prophet

"Mothers, keep the children from eating meat; and let them eat vegetables that are fully matured, not unripe, and bread that is well baked, not soft." (BYJD 8:63)

"We have had this Word of Wisdom thirty-five years last February, and the whole people have not yet learned to observe it after the true spirit and meaning of it…Flesh should be used sparingly, in famine and in cold." (JD 12:209)

Ok.

Flesh should be used sparingly.

Quote

Lorenzo Snow - Prophet

"While moving slowly forward in pursuit of something to kill, my mind was arrested with the reflection on the nature of my pursuit - that of amusing myself by giving pain and death to harmless, innocent creatures that perhaps had as much right to life and enjoyment as myself. I realized that such indulgence was without any justification, and feeling condemned, I laid my gun on my shoulder, and returned home, and from that time to this have felt no inclination for that murderous amusement." (Thomas C. Romney, The Life of Lorenzo Snow, p.35)

Another quote dealing with hunting as sport, not vegetarianism.

Quote

"…special attention to that part which relates to the use of meat, which he considered just as strong as that which relates to the use of liquors and hot drinks.' Apostle Snow 'was convinced that the killing of animals when unnecessary was wrong and sinful, and that it was not right to neglect one part of the Word of Wisdom and be too strenuous in regard to other parts." (Journal History, 5 May 1893, p. 2-3)

Killing animals when unnecessary is wrong, that is the point of the quote.

Quote

Heber J. Grant - Prophet

"I think that another reason I have very splendid strength for an old man is that during the years we have had a cafeteria in the Utah Hotel I have not, with the exception of not more than a dozen times, ordered meat of any kind…I have endeavored to live the Word of Wisdom, and that in my opinion, is one reason for my good health."  (CR April 1937, p. 15)

Yet he did eat meat, just not frequently or excessively.

Quote

David O. McKay - Prophet

"While in his youth, David O. McKay's dog killed a badger and President McKay said: 'I carried the dead animal back to father. His face fell as I showed him the animal, and he said, "Why did you let your dog kill it? It is a harmless creature, and there was no need to take its life. Who know, it may even have some babies which now will starve to death in their holes!" I have never needlessly killed an animal since that time!" (Llewelyn R. McKay, Home Memories of President David O. McKay, p.30)

Surely you aren't suggesting that David O. McKay was going to eat the badger?  His father was appalled because there was no reason to kill.

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"A true Latter-day Saint is kind to animals, is kind to every created thing, for God created all." (CR, Oct. 1951)

Kindness to animals doesn't equate vegetarianism.

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Harold B. Lee - Prophet

"But although God has ordained animals for the use of man…man must not waste animal life. To kill when not necessary, is a sin akin to murder…a tyrant who has learned nothing but selfishness and cruelty can hope for no position of trust hereafter in the kingdom of the Father." (Joseph Fielding, Harold B. Lee, Marion G. Romney, revised The Doctrine and Covenants Commentary, originally written by Hyrum M. Smith and Janne M. Sjodahl, p. 286)

How is that a Harold B. Lee quote?

Quote

Spencer W. Kimball - Prophet

President Kimball has carried on the legacy of the Smith family with his many talks respecting animal life. Still to this day, his General Conference talk regarding the needless killing of birds is cited often by other writers and speakers. He begins by citing a primary song:

"I remember that my predecessor, President Joseph Fielding Smith, was a protector of these feathered and other wild life creatures."

"Now, I also would like to add some of my feelings concerning the unnecessary shedding of blood and destruction of life. I think that every soul should be impressed by the sentiments that have been expressed here by the prophets."

"And not less with reference to the killing of innocent birds is the wildlife of our country that live upon the vermin that are indeed enemies to the farmer and to mankind. It is not only wicked to destroy them, it is a shame, in my opinion. I think that this principle should extend not only to the bird life but to the life of all animals. "

"Don't kill the little birds
That sing on bush and tree,
All thro' the summer days,
Their sweetest melody."
(Deseret Songs, 1909, no. 163)

"Take not away the life you cannot give, for all things have an equal right to live." (Spencer W. Kimball, "Fundamental Principles to Ponder and Live," Ensign, 1978)

As vermin are hardly a feature on most tables, how is this espousing vegetarianism?

Quote

"I still don't eat very much meat." (CR, April 1978)

But did eat meat.

Quote

George F. Richards - Apostle

"We are not asked now…to lay down our lives to show our obedience to the Lord, and our worthiness to be his disciples, but we are asked by the Lord to abstain from…the use of meats to excess. This is simple requirement. How can we hope to lay down our lives, how can we claim to be willing to do so, while our lives and actions every day, show to our neighbors and to the Lord that we are not willing to rid ourselves of...those things forbidden by the Lord? Let us be consistent with ourselves and our professions of faith." (CR, Oct. 1908, p. 88)

Right, so excessive use is wrong.

[Ares]

DWhitmer, on 04 May 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

That's precisely why God in is His wonder allowed a Second Witness to come forth in support of the gospel His son taught. Unfortunately J.Smith changed revelations and neglected the BoM thereby mudding the original gospel.

If you take the two records as originally planned, there is little to disagree on, the gospel it contains is THAT simple.

You have had more than your share of attempts to judge other posters faithfulness and pot shots at Joseph Smith.  You are excused from this thread.

[volgadon]

Quote

in fact, you don't even live the Word of Wisdom.

I don't happen to use a lot of meat.

[mfbukowski]

volgadon, on 04 May 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

I've used these quotes when discussing with a mission companion hunting as a sport. He thought hunting wonderful, I didn't. These quotes address the wanton destruction of animal life for fun, they aren't really about vegetarianism.

Agreed.

But you ain't from Utah, is ya?  Don't you know that deer season is a religious holiday?  

On the other hand, most hunters do eat what they kill, and I think if one eats ANY meat, one must be able to deal ethically with the fact that it involves killing an animal- and that is a painful and bloody process no matter how it is done.

Edited by mfbukowski, 04 May 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[thesometimesaint]

♦ As Joseph looked over the table he said, "Lord, we thank thee for this Johnny cake, ans asked me to send us something better. Amen." The cornbread was cut and I received a piece from his hand. Before the bread was eaten,a man came to the door and asked if the Prophet Joseph was at home. Whereupon the visitor said, "I have brought you some flour and a ham." Joseph arose and took the gift, and blessed the man in the name of the Lord. Turning to his wife, Emma, he said, "I knew the Lord would answer my prayer." - John L. Smith

[wenglund]

DWhitmer, on 04 May 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

You forgot to mention J.Smith. Your ignorance is rabid, the above quotes confirm top leaders are the worse offenders of the WoW and if your "Bishop" were a true follower of the BoM, he would not be your Bishop. Think for yourself, this is not what some Old Testament wannabe High Priest immitator thinks, it's what God thinks and I strongly encourage to come out from the church wide curse and be a true follower of the record you claim to believe.

Didn't Joseph Smith condemn this kind of creedal thinking?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-