Carborendum, on 01 May 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:
Blood Atonement
#21
Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:09 PM
#22
Posted 03 May 2012 - 09:45 AM
What about 1 Cor. 5:4-5?
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This is in a religious context and is done so "that the spirit may be saved."
What about D&C 132:26, 41, 64?
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
Here we see that people who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise through the holy anointing and then break certain covenants are to be destroyed. The phrases "delivered unto the buffetings of Satan" and "I will destroy her" suggest, rather than the offender being physically killed or sacrificed by another mortal, that they would be delivered up to the Lord who would then remove all protection of them from Satan and allow them to be destroyed by him, as in the passage from 1 Cor. 5 above.
-James Fenimore Cooper
#23
Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:09 AM
Cobalt-70, on 02 May 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:
The 2010 statement says that the atonement of Jesus was "infinite and all-encompassing." Bruce McConkie, on the other hand, claimed that "there are some sins for which the blood of Christ alone does not cleanse a person." He also said that, in effect, the blood atonement doctrine was the official doctrine of the church as a theoretical principle, but that it was operative only in a theocracy. He said there was no doctrine of blood atonement "in this dispensation." By contrast, the 2010 statement says that Jesus' atonement applies to all people, apparently including those in a theocracy who have committed grave sins.
Quote
McConkie wrote:
Quote
Everything else McCronkie wrote was theoretical under a law we have not been given. If we are not given a law, we are not subject to it. Thus, under the law which we now live, the Church's 2010 statement is entirely consistent with what McConkie wrote. (Unless of course you think God treats people who lived without a law the same as those who lived with a law. But the Book of Mormon teaches that God does not do that.)
Edited by Mark Beesley, 03 May 2012 - 10:11 AM.
And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2:44-45
And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift. 4 Nephi 1:3
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875
#24
Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:13 AM
-James Fenimore Cooper
#25
Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:23 AM
K-2, on 03 May 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:
No, I don't think we have been give a law implementing so-called blood atonement.
And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2:44-45
And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift. 4 Nephi 1:3
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875
#26
Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:02 AM
Mark Beesley, on 03 May 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:
#27
Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:08 AM
Cobalt-70, on 03 May 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:
And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2:44-45
And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift. 4 Nephi 1:3
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875
#28
Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:14 AM
Mark Beesley, on 03 May 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:
Thus, given that the church would have been in a lot of trouble from the U.S. government if it had performed human sacrifices of its own members, the church thereafter relied upon the power of the state as a proxy to perform such sacrifices of Mormons as part of the normal capital punishment system. The Utah territory and Utah state implemented laws that prohibited hanging, and allowed execution only by firing squad and beheading. That system was imperfect, however, as it did not allow the sacrifice of Mormons who committed non-capital religious offenses, such as adultery, miscegenation, and breaking temple covenants.
Edited by Cobalt-70, 03 May 2012 - 12:41 PM.
#29
Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:17 AM
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10
#30
Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:54 PM
Edited by zelder, 04 May 2012 - 02:56 PM.
#31
Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:02 PM
Valentinus, on 03 May 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:
Why does the reality of the Atonement mean that the repentance process for murder would never include giving up one's own life?
UMW always and forever.
#32
Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:20 PM
bluebell, on 04 May 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:
Where is the scriptural support? Where is the revelation for this doctrine? There is no clear scriptural support nor is there any revelation for this doctrine. Furthermore, there is no record that Joseph Smith ever taught it. In contrast, I think we could find several scriptures that would contradict blood atonement. We have all the same problems with blood atonement that we had with the priesthood ban.
#33
Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:22 PM
If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose my beliefs are true ... and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. - J. B. S. Haldane
#35
Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:30 PM
#36
Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:31 PM
zelder, on 04 May 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:
You are right. However, I'm suggesting that the question is irrelevant.
If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose my beliefs are true ... and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. - J. B. S. Haldane
#37
Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:47 PM
Log, on 04 May 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:
?? I don't believe in blood atonement, neither does the church. Only someone who believes in blood atonement can respond to the question. It sounds like maybe you believe in blood atonement. If so, I think you should respond.
#38
Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:56 PM
zelder, on 04 May 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:
Quote
Quote
And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2:44-45
And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift. 4 Nephi 1:3
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875
#39
Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:07 PM
Mark Beesley, on 04 May 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:
Mormon apologists create unnecessary bad feelings when they can't acknowledge embarrassing things that were taught by prophets from the pulpit. There is no way around it. We have to simply own it and accept it. My approach to accepting it might be different from yours but denial gives Mormon apologists a bad reputation. We loose all credibility and respect when we deny what was taught.
It was a mistake, an ugly mistake but God is real, he loves us and the mistakes don't mean the true revelations and doctrines didn't come from God.
Edited by zelder, 04 May 2012 - 04:10 PM.
#40
Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:09 PM
zelder, on 04 May 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:
Mormon apologists create unnecessary bad feelings when they can't acknowledge embarrassing things that were taught by prophets from the pulpit. There is no way around it. We have to simply own it and accept it. My approach to accepting it might be different from yours but denial gives Mormon apologists a bad reputation. We loose all credibility and respect when we deny what was taught.
And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2:44-45
And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift. 4 Nephi 1:3
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875
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