26 replies to this topic

[alexlds]

Responding to threads suggesting that the church is racist and / or prejudiced against gays or gay marriage, I usually say something like this . . .  "I have been an active LDS member in the UK of nearly 40 years now. In all that time I have never ever seen a black or gay member (yes we do have them) or visitors treated with anything less than full respect and consideration. It may be an unusual concept to grasp, but the church is not in fact anti-gay - rather it is pro marriage". They may not and may never understand or accept that - but they simply cant argue with my personal experience.

[dougtheavenger]

cinepro, on 30 April 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

I would suggest sending your suggested "list" to the most knowledgeable and respected black LDS that you can find.  I would start with Darius Gray.

Their feedback would probably be the most helpful.

I would also watch "Nobody Knows".  And read "Neither White Nor Black" (you can read it for free online).

I also wouldn't mention Hitler or eugenics.  You can still have terrible, evil racism without full-blown eugenics.

Sorry, but I disagree. These statements are not about getting anyone's approval. They are about getting out the truth. If I were to choose a person who was the victim of racism, it wouldn't be any black American who frankly know less about racism than most people. I would rather choose a survivor of Auschwitz or some other death camp. Gypsies and Jews who lived through the 1930s and 40s in Europe are the people who's life stories created a reaction against racism. Most of what is said about racism in America today is semi-literate trivialization of the subject.

Edited by dougtheavenger, 30 April 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[dougtheavenger]

Abraham Chapter 3:22
"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;"

This single scripture is sufficient to refute any charge of racism against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Anything Brigham Young may have said about the mark of Cain, etc. is placed in perspective and becomes almost trivial by comparison. If you don't understand why that is then you don't understand racism. Furthermore, I find the suggestion that we should not talk about Hitler when we talk about racism to be highly suspect. Talking about Hitler is going back to basics. What is racism and why did the world decide at the conclusion of WWII that racism was pernicious?

Edited by dougtheavenger, 30 April 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[calmoriah]

You might be want to be involved in a conference call discussion with Marvin Perkins about the issue, PM mfbukowski  about details if interested after reading the below.

see:  http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/57572-time-to-revisit/page__st__40__p__1209116182#entry1209116182

[dougtheavenger]

If I seemed to have been short with anyone posting on this thread I apologize. I asked for your opinion and you gave it. Thank you.

As a result of your input, I want to further refine my response to critics of the Church with regard to racism.

"When it really counted the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was on the side of the angels.

1. When slavery was an issue Joseph Smith ran for president with a plan to free all slaves by 1850.

2. For more than a century leading up to the Nazi genocide, Mormon doctrine refuted the ideas that underpinned Naziism; namely biological determinism or the idea that genes or biology determine intellectual and moral attainment.


Abraham Chapter 3:22
"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;"

Edited by dougtheavenger, 01 May 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[thesometimesaint]

Genes do largely determine intellectual attainment(+/- 10 IQ points for the environment) Put Einstein in a coat closet and you'd still get a really smart guy but with lots of hangups. However intellectual attainment is not based on sex, race, religion, or country of origin of the individual.

Edited by thesometimesaint, 01 May 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[treehugger]

dougtheavenger, on 01 May 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

If I seemed to have been short with anyone posting on this thread I apologize. I asked for your opinion and you gave it. Thank you.

As a result of your input, I want to further refine my response to critics of the Church with regard to racism.

"When it really counted the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was on the side of the angels.

1. When slavery was an issue Joseph Smith ran for president with a plan to free all slaves by 1850.

2. For more than a century leading up to the Nazi genocide, Mormon doctrine refuted the ideas that underpinned Naziism; namely biological determinism or the idea that genes or biology determine intellectual and moral attainment.


Abraham Chapter 3:22
"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;"

What do you use to support your points? Materials from the Church or other sources of accepted facts?  Making claims is what we all do, supporting those claims is what counts.  You number 2 statement does not address the claim that the LDS had what is viewed as a racist policy. What is the connection of Nazis to worthy Black males not being ordained to the priesthood prior to 1978? How do you address Abraham Chapter 1:21-27 and what is stated about Pharoah?