Jump to content


Unintended Consequences Of Gender Bias In The Lds Church


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
289 replies to this topic

#61 Valentinus

Valentinus

    Evil Emperor of MDDB...I own you all!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,073 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:23 PM

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

CFR

Again I have already stated I have no problem with women who want to pursue having the priesthood for personal growth opportunities and to serve others.  That is the right intent with which to seek after the things of God.  It is my intent.  

There are many ordinances that women could participate in without removing the opportunity of men to engage in some unique experiences.  What I don't want is in the effort to supply women with the fullest of opportunities, for men to be sacrificed or deprived of what is meaningful to them.  It needs to be approached in a balanced way for all concerned.  It would be a shame, imo, for baptism of children to become a competition between parents on who gets to do it.

As in the quote in my sig below, there is much more we have to be revealed to us before we are ready to receive exaltation.  I have a feeling part of that will be priesthood ordinances that are solely the dominion of women for both men and women and their children.

This is silly. Priesthood isn't about human anatomy.

Furthermore, it's silly to think that men may 'lose' their place in the church if women were given priesthood authority. Also, if parents are worrying about who is going to baptize their child...they have bigger problems than this.

It's a sad slippery slope.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10

#62 divinenature

divinenature

    Seasoned Member: Separates Light & Dark

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 359 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:40 PM

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

CFR

Again I have already stated I have no problem with women who want to pursue having the priesthood for personal growth opportunities and to serve others.  That is the right intent with which to seek after the things of God.  It is my intent.  

There are many ordinances that women could participate in without removing the opportunity of men to engage in some unique experiences.  What I don't want is in the effort to supply women with the fullest of opportunities, for men to be sacrificed or deprived of what is meaningful to them.  It needs to be approached in a balanced way for all concerned.  It would be a shame, imo, for baptism of children to become a competition between parents on who gets to do it.

As in the quote in my sig below, there is much more we have to be revealed to us before we are ready to receive exaltation.  I have a feeling part of that will be priesthood ordinances that are solely the dominion of women for both men and women and their children.

The priesthood ban on women is an artificial construct based on tradition and sexist interpretations of the scriptures. There is nothing inherent in femaleness that makes you unable to exercise the priesthood just like there was nothing inherent in a black man to keep him from exercising the priesthood. That is what I mean by artificial.

What keeps a man and some women from becoming pregnant is not artificially constructed. That is delegated by our DNA and other factors out of our control.

I do not believe that women having the opportunity to vote (for example) negates or deprives men of their special privilege to vote. If someone has to feel special by depriving others of rights and privileges that person has some deeper issues they need to work out.
"Salt, vinegar and pepper given internally and plunging in the river when paroxysms begin will cure cholera." Joseph Smith Jr.

"I had now completed the organization of the Church and we had passed through all the necessary ceremonies." Joseph Smith Jr., March 30th 1836

#63 divinenature

divinenature

    Seasoned Member: Separates Light & Dark

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 359 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:44 PM

Motherhood is not the equal of Priesthood office.
Motherhood is the female counterpart to Fatherhood.

A woman outside the church can have a baby if she is able to. A woman inside the church may or may not be able to have a baby just the same.

A man can be a father in or out of the church, if he is able to.

A woman in the church no matter if she is single, married or widowed cannot have the priesthood.

A boy from age 12 on up can have the priesthood regardless of marital status or parent status.

The priesthood and motherhood are not counterparts.
"Salt, vinegar and pepper given internally and plunging in the river when paroxysms begin will cure cholera." Joseph Smith Jr.

"I had now completed the organization of the Church and we had passed through all the necessary ceremonies." Joseph Smith Jr., March 30th 1836

#64 Libs

Libs

    Brings Forth Plants

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,840 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:45 PM

Quote

Have you heard this sentiment expressed in church by others to the extent that it may indicate a widespread belief?

I heard this sentiment often, in church.  I don't believe it is true.  Men and women have fairly equal abilities to be spiritual and charitable, from my observations.

I always thought that it was a sort of conciliatory remark, because women couldn't hold the priesthood.

#65 calmoriah

calmoriah

    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,165 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:47 PM

View PostValentinus, on 01 May 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:


This is silly. Priesthood isn't about human anatomy.
Never said it was.

Quote

Furthermore, it's silly to think that men may 'lose' their place in the church if women were given priesthood authority.
I never said that.

Quote

Also, if parents are worrying about who is going to baptize their child...they have bigger problems than this.
Indeed.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#66 JeremyOrbe-Smith

JeremyOrbe-Smith

    Ancient Astronaut

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 907 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:52 PM

I think the fundamental problem is that we've separated men and women into two easily-classifiable teams, as if we're playing sports or watching a political rally. It ends up in a false dichotomy. It means that we generalize too broadly; while there are of course beautiful biological/physiological differences between genders, it's too easy to go too far and characterize all men and all women as being more similar than they really are.

A man has experiences with a few women and because they are women he assumes that their personalities are representative of the entire gender. A woman knows a few men and because they are men she assumes that their personalities are representative of the entire gender.

(This is especially bad on social networking sites like Facebook; I see men constantly putting up jokes and complaints about "women" and women constantly doing the same about "men" when really all they're saying is these particular men/women that I know are behaving this way -- and then they go on to generalize about all men and all women, each side complaining about the double standards that only the other side ever enacts. My "masculinist" friends post articles that purport to show all the problems "feminism" is causing; my "feminist" friends post articles that purport to show all the problems "masculinism" is causing, and the divine widens.)

It's all based on false premises. It's Nibley's old problem:  

Quote

"I have been quite half-hearted [...] and much too easily drawn into what I call the Gentile Dilemma. That is, when I find myself called upon to stand up and be counted, to declare myself on one side or the other. Which do I prefer -- gin or rum, cigarettes or cigars, tea of coffee, heroin or LSD, the Red Rose or the White, Shiz or Coriantumr, wicked Nephites or wicked Lamanites, Whigs or Tories, Catholic or Protestant, Republican or Democrat, black power or white power, land pirates or sea pirates, commissars or corporations, capitalism or communism [and Matriarchy or Patriarchy].

The devilish neatness and simplicity of the thing is the easy illusion that I am choosing between good and evil, when in reality two or more evils by their rivalry distract my attention from the real issue."

The real issue is that the radical Restoration posits that every single person, every man, woman and child, is a God in Embryo. But the inevitable corollary is that every single person, man, woman and child, also has the potential to be a devil, an accuser, a false God.

This is no time for patronizing stereotypes about which gender is "more spiritual." That's the false choice. Each individual -- regardless of gender! -- has equal potential to Fall, which means that each has equal potential to become a Servant of All. If we deny one gender the ability to sin grievously based on some intrinsic "goodness" which they have access to which the other gender is barred from by their very anatomy, then we've effectively denied the agency of both genders and justified it with an appeal to maudlin sentimentality. It's insulting to everyone involved.

The beauty of the Restoration is that in its best expression, it exalts both men and women, who are capable of making themselves genuinely Good because they are Free Agents deliberately choosing the right, based not on some inherent "goodness" (which, if it is truly inherent, is not "goodness" at all since there is no agency involved) but rather on their ability to act and not be acted on.

The Restoration is the ultimate form of exalted humanism, which philosophical monotheists disdain as primitive "polytheism", as if the mere number of people we give worth to means anything at all. We really do (or should) believe the Bible when it says: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant."

A True God is one who serves others, regardless of their gender. Being as Good as God -- being a servant of no reputation -- is not robbery. It takes nothing away from one good person to see another good person doing good! And since that is the case, why do we insist on withholding Priesthood from women based not on any actions which might disqualify one from being an authorized servant anointed with oil from the olive Tree of Life, but rather on their mere biology?

It makes no sense.

But because it makes no sense, some try to uphold mere tradition by claiming, for instance, that "God moves in mysterious ways!" without naming a scriptural reference for this noncanonical Proverb, which is actually from the 19th century hymnalist William Cowper.

Well, in that case, doesn't Yahweh saith "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" in Isaiah?

Yes! That's exactly right and true! Because in Ezekiel 18, God cries "O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."

And yet we still maintain a "separate but equal" clause in the Priesthood. This is not like biological inequalities, where one gender has physical attributes that the other does not. Men and women are both equally beautiful in their unique ways, that's true; why should this uniqueness extend to the Priesthood? Why did we insert an emphatic "hereafter" into the washing and anointing ceremony for Queens and Priestesses, but not for the men who will be Kings and Priests, though they are both only anointed to "become" such?

What are we gaining by this separation into politicized teams? What would we lose if we Restored the Priesthood to women, seeing that we believe that it is not robbery to be equal with God? "The saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him." (D&C 88:107)

Note well that it says the Saints.

Not men. Not women. Those who are Servants of All.

This is like delaying the Law of Consecration because we "haven't been asked" to practice it yet. It's not going to happen unless we make it happen ourselves. Zion is not going to built unless we build it. There has to be a stirring below before Revelation is received from above; we have to be looking for an answer before we can find one, not resting on our laurels proclaiming all is well in Zion.

We, with our doctrine of a literal Mother Goddess as well as a Father God, we with our doctrine of a literal Heaven where there are Gods many and Lords many, are in an absolutely unique position in all of Christianity to offer this Restoration. Yes, there were a few tentative steps in this direction in the 19th century, with Mary Baker Eddy and others teaching about a feminine "aspect" to their disembodied deity, but it was all spiritualized abstractions, not the Gods of Flesh and Bone that we believe in. Instead of cozying up to philosophical monotheists and making ourselves indistinguishable from conservative Evangelical Protestants, why aren't we proclaiming this from the rooftops? We should have been the first people to ordain Priestesses, not the embarrassed last few, racing to catch up!

Myself, I think we should be following the spirit of Eliza R. Snow's more progressive poems ("The Significance of 'O My Father' in the Personal Journey of Eliza R. Snow" by Jill Mulvay Derr) She was the Poetess of Zion, a Priestess, a Prophet too, as Emmeline B. Wells wrote.

Quote

"While sit[t]ing here [said Snow] I have been looking upon the faces of my Sisters and can See the form of Deity there and I have been Reflecting of the Great work we have to perform, Even in helping in the Salvation of the Living and the Dead," she told sisters of the Lehi, Utah, Relief Society in October 1869. "We want to be ladys in very deed not acording to the term of the word as the world Judges but fit Companions of the Gods and Holy ones." A month earlier, she had been in Provo asking:

"Who are these my sisters they are the daughters of the most high God, and we are here in this dispensation to cooperate with God and our brethren in saving the human family. We read that one hundred and forty-four thousand Saviours are to stand upon Mount Zion, has women anything to do in this great work of salvation, or are the sisters merely machines to be saved by the brethren, In these last days woman has her part to perform, which is a significant part."

She counseled, "In your lives seek to refine and elevate, that you may be prepared to come into the presence of holy beings, and associate with Gods, we do not know our own abilities until they are brought into exercise."

So let's help each other to exercise our abilities, regardless of whether we are men or women. It's the Plan of Salvation that matters, not who brings it or what gender they are; whether by God's voice or the voice of one of His servants, the message is the same: to help in whatever way we can to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity. Inasmuch as we are not Saviors, we are as salt that has lost its savor.

Edited by JeremyOrbe-Smith, 01 May 2012 - 02:01 PM.


#67 calmoriah

calmoriah

    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,165 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:56 PM

View Postdivinenature, on 01 May 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

If someone has to feel special by depriving others of rights and privileges that person has some deeper issues they need to work out.
I have never seen the need for equality to be based on making sure everyone has the same exact opportunities as everyone else.

I think miracles will happen when women go to the Lord asking to receive of the power and glory he intends for them rather than wishing to share in the power and glory that men currently receive.

On a side note, just to be clear Priesthood is two different issues for me, I am talking above to the performing of ordinance work and authority to act in the name of the Lord which I fully believe women are capable of doing and will do at some time in the future in ways unique for them.  Second there is the issue of decisionmaking in the Church which has been tied to priesthood due to leadership position past a certain point requiring holding the priesthood.  This is a separate issue for me and I see it as imperative that women are more involved and be given more control in general so that individual women will feel safer and more a part of the essential nature of the Church.  I see this process happening slowly but surely in general.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#68 Valentinus

Valentinus

    Evil Emperor of MDDB...I own you all!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,073 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:57 PM

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

CFR

Again I have already stated I have no problem with women who want to pursue having the priesthood for personal growth opportunities and to serve others.  That is the right intent with which to seek after the things of God.  It is my intent.  

There are many ordinances that women could participate in without removing the opportunity of men to engage in some unique experiences.  What I don't want is in the effort to supply women with the fullest of opportunities, for men to be sacrificed or deprived of what is meaningful to them.  It needs to be approached in a balanced way for all concerned.  It would be a shame, imo, for baptism of children to become a competition between parents on who gets to do it.

This is ridiculous. Just to re-emphasize...bearing children and performing priesthood ordinances are NOT equivalent. I hope parents are better than that. Perhaps let the child decide who they want to perform the baptism and the parents can be mature enough to not throw a tantrum.

As in the quote in my sig below, there is much more we have to be revealed to us before we are ready to receive exaltation.  I have a feeling part of that will be priesthood ordinances that are solely the dominion of women for both men and women and their children.

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Never said it was.
I never said that.
Indeed.

10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10

#69 calmoriah

calmoriah

    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,165 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:05 PM

View PostJeremyOrbe-Smith, on 01 May 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:


So let's help each other to exercise our abilities, regardless of whether we are men or women. It's the Plan of Salvation that matters, not who brings it or what gender they are; whether by God's voice or the voice of one of His servants, the message is the same: to help in whatever way we can to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity. Inasmuch as we are not Saviors, we are as salt that has lost its savor.
Well said.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#70 calmoriah

calmoriah

    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,165 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:06 PM

View PostValentinus, on 01 May 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

This is ridiculous. Just to re-emphasize...bearing children and performing priesthood ordinances are NOT equivalent.
And I have never said anything that states that they are.  You are reading into my comments about unique experiences something that isn't there.

Edited by calmoriah, 01 May 2012 - 02:07 PM.

When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#71 Valentinus

Valentinus

    Evil Emperor of MDDB...I own you all!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,073 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:07 PM

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

I have never seen the need for equality to be based on making sure everyone has the same exact opportunities as everyone else.

Right. Because God is not an equal opportunity God.

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

On a side note, just to be clear Priesthood is two different issues for me, I am talking above to the performing of ordinance work and authority to act in the name of the Lord which I fully believe women are capable of doing and will do at some time in the future in ways unique for them.  Second there is the issue of decisionmaking in the Church which has been tied to priesthood due to leadership position past a certain point requiring holding the priesthood.  This is a separate issue for me and I see it as imperative that women are more involved and be given more control in general so that individual women will feel safer and more a part of the essential nature of the Church.  I see this process happening slowly but surely in general.

Perhaps you should read Maxine Hank's revolutionary collection of essays (various authors) in Women and Authority: Re-Emerging Mormon Feminism.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10

#72 calmoriah

calmoriah

    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,165 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:09 PM

As long as you ignore half of what I am saying, you will not understand or address my points.

Bottomline, I don't want the Priesthood that men have, I want  (because I desire the opportunity of greater knowledge and greater righteousness) the Priesthood that God has and I am willing to not only wait for that part of it I have not received yet, but am willing to ask him directly instead of going to men for permission to do so.

Edited by calmoriah, 01 May 2012 - 02:12 PM.

When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#73 calmoriah

calmoriah

    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,165 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:13 PM

View PostValentinus, on 01 May 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:


Right. Because God is not an equal opportunity God.
When has the world ever been set up in mortality as "equal opportunity".  We are only promised that equal opportunity will come to us through eternity and the blessings we will receive at judgment, never is it stated that this time of probation is such.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#74 Valentinus

Valentinus

    Evil Emperor of MDDB...I own you all!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,073 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:15 PM

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

As long as you ignore half of what I am saying, you will not understand or address my points.

Fair enough.

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Bottomline, I don't want the Priesthood that men have, I want  (because I desire the opportunity of greater knowledge and greater righteousness) the Priesthood that God has and I am willing to not only wait for that part of it I have not received yet, but am willing to ask him directly instead of going to men for permission to do so.

Thank you! I wish people could understand the necessity of such action. It's not the priesthood holders permission you should EVER be seeking. It's Gods.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10

#75 Valentinus

Valentinus

    Evil Emperor of MDDB...I own you all!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,073 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:19 PM

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

When has the world ever been set up in mortality as "equal opportunity".  We are only promised that equal opportunity will come to us through eternity and the blessings we will receive at judgment, never is it stated that this time of probation is such.

The world is what we make it. The call for change and temporal progression is forever a necessity. Tradition becomes irrelevant as paradigms shift to accomodate the changing needs of cultures and societies.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10

#76 calmoriah

calmoriah

    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,165 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:19 PM

Quote

It's not the priesthood holders permission you should EVER be seeking. It's Gods.
I ask priesthood holders' permission when it is in their stewardship just as I ask other women for their permission when it is in their stewardship.  My eternal destiny is the stewardship I share with God and no other.

Edited by calmoriah, 01 May 2012 - 02:25 PM.

When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#77 calmoriah

calmoriah

    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,165 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:20 PM

View PostValentinus, on 01 May 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:


The world is what we make it. The call for change and temporal progression is forever a necessity. Tradition becomes irrelevant as paradigms shift to accomodate the changing needs of cultures and societies.
But change for the sake of change can be more harmful than good.  I prefer change for the right reason, not just to feel like we are accomplishing something.

It seems to me attempting to adopt the traditional role of men into a role of men and women is buying into the 'relevancy' of tradition, not refuting it.  Why not dispense with tradition and instead start fresh?

Edited by calmoriah, 01 May 2012 - 02:24 PM.

When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith

#78 Valentinus

Valentinus

    Evil Emperor of MDDB...I own you all!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,073 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:23 PM

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

I ask priesthood holders' permission when it is in their stewardship.  My eternal destiny is the stewardship I share with God and no other.

Good for you.

The only middle man between myself and God is Jesus Christ. But this is based on a difference of opinion and theology.
10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10

#79 Valentinus

Valentinus

    Evil Emperor of MDDB...I own you all!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,073 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:25 PM

View Postcalmoriah, on 01 May 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

But change for the sake of change can be more harmful than good.  I prefer change for the right reason, not just to feel like we are accomplishing something.

It seems to me attempting to adopt the traditional role of men into a role of men and women is buying into the 'relevancy' of tradition.  Why not instead start fresh?

Agreed. Hence why I said what I said:

Quote

paradigms shift to accomodate the changing needs of cultures and societies

10 a. Collectively and individually, you are loved with an everlasting love that delights in each faithful step taken. God yearns to draw you close so that wounds may be healed, emptiness filled, and hope strengthened.
b. Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. -D&C 163:10

#80 mfbukowski

mfbukowski

    Declares a Day of Rest

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,315 posts

Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:47 PM

View Postdivinenature, on 01 May 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

I imagine you might be surprised how many women would enjoy blessing their baby or confirming their child or even just standing as a witness to a baptism or sealing. But we've been taught not to want that and spend lots of time in Relief Society convincing ourselves we don't want it so you might be hard-pressed to find many women who would admit it out loud.
My daughter loves the opportunity to administer initiatories in the temple and laying her hands on sisters heads and pronouncing all those amazing blessings.

She has assisted my wife come through the veil.   She has officiated as sister follower in endowments.

You should try it sometime
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, ...  creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah

My Blog: Theomorphic Man http://theomorphicman.blogspot.com/


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users