289 replies to this topic

[mercyngrace]

Are women more spiritual, more charitable, smarter than men?  It is clear that some members of the church so believe. Yesterday in church, this idea was taught not once but three times by three different individuals, two of whom were male. As a mother of sons, this gender bias in favor of women disturbs me greatly. I actually composed an email to send to one of the speakers but decided to err on the side of mercy since I've put my foot in my mouth at the pulpit and in front of the classroom more times than I care to remember.

Below is the content of the email, it explains my position.  The questions for discussion are these:

Do you believe that women are innately smarter, more charitable, and more spiritual than men?

What authoritative evidence validates your position (statements by GAs, scriptures, etc, not anecdotes)?

Have you heard this sentiment expressed in church by others to the extent that it may indicate a widespread belief?

Quote

Brother HCSpeaker,

I appreciate your visit to our ward today and the sentiments you expressed about the divine nature of women. I was hoping to catch you after the meeting to share a few thoughts but missed you. I hope you don't mind that I got your email from the online stake directory and reached out in this manner.

Please know that I am sharing my thoughts with you as a mother of three priceless and amazing young men and one beautiful and beloved daughter.

There seems to have developed a cultural notion in the church that women are more spiritual than men. I have spent a little time studying the genesis of this idea in LDS thought and know that statements by some church authorities, slight, gender-based, distinctions in temple rites, and cultural treatment of Heavenly Mother have all been used to justify this elevated view of womanhood. I wholeheartedly agree with your father that the women of the church are key to its growth and spiritual health - mothers are generally the keepers of the hearth, even those who work outside the home.

Acknowledging the elevated role of women however, does not necessitate denigrating men. Saying that women are "more" spiritual, "more" compassionate, or "more" charitable, and certainly saying outright, as you did today, that "men are stupid" not only unjustly exalts women but it sends the message to impressionable young men such as my sons that they are less than their sisters.

This is simply untrue. And as a mother of sons, it is heartbreaking to hear this message in church.

I devote my days to teaching my sons that they are a priceless heritage, a royal priesthood, and of incalculable worth. I try to teach them that all of God's children, rich, poor, Jew, Greek, bond, free, and yes, male and female are entitled to the same privileges, and worthy to access the same spiritual gifts.

We may be different by nature in some aspects but not in our ability to reach the divine, not in our ability to make righteous choices, and certainly not in our ability to be charitable. Charity incarnate was housed in the body of a young, Jewish male.

Please know that, as a woman, I appreciate the efforts of men in the church to value my gender and role. But I beg of you, as a mother, please do not do this at the expense of my sons. Please do not send the subtle or explicit message that they are stupid and less able to be Christ-like because of some imagined gender related flaw in nature. This message plants a small seed of self-doubt that has the potential to bloom in later years to self-justification in sin. After all, boys will be boys, right? They really can't help themselves. This ideological relic of Victorian society also places an unrealistic expectation upon our young women, the weight of which can be overbearing and counterproductive causing them to feel a disparate excess of guilt and shame when they err because they suppose themselves to have fallen from the height of a pedestal that was unreasonably high at the start. Yet another unintended consequence of this notion is that it potentially lowers expectations of male behavior in the minds of the women they later marry. You can imagine what an unhealthy and lopsided relationship such a theology would create in a marriage.

No. Stupidity is a human condition and men are no more prone to the weaknesses of mortality than women. They are every bit as capable of being loving. nurturing, kind, and charitable. They are just as valuable and their role is just as significant.

Sin has no gender bias. Temptations are not limited to men. And the fall, mortal stupidity included, applies to the whole of humankind.

Thank you for the time, talent, and energy you devote to the Lord's kingdom. May God continue to bless you and your family,

Sister Mercyngrace

PS Brother HCSpeaker, I want you to know that my son's deacon quorum advisor today, following in the same line of thought you expressed, told my son and his peers that "Women are better than men" and that the sealer who married him and his wife explicitly said the same. Ordinarily, I do not write to speakers or teachers to express disagreement but this belief seems to be widespread and I feel strongly that it sends a damaging message to our sons, sets a low bar, and creates an environment where sin may be justifiable and spiritual mediocrity expected. Rather, let us open the minds of all God's children to their divine potential and recount to them the story of their creation in the image of God, for "male and female created He them."

Edited by mercyngrace, 03 May 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[Hamba Tuhan]

mercyngrace, on 30 April 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Do you believe that women are innately smarter, more charitable, and more spiritual than men?

No.

Quote

Have you heard this sentiment expressed in church by others to the extent that it may indicate a widespread belief?

I heard it last year for the first time in ages, spoken by our mission president and a member of our area presidency in the same fireside. Having driven 300km to take some of my stalwart priests to the fireside, I was beyond disappointed. Both men, however, are American, and it seems possible that this is an American cultural phenomenon?

[stelf]

I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree with you.  I myself have expressed this view in the past when teaching in my priesthood quorum or speaking in sacrament meeting.  Of course, it was meant simply to teach that we should respect women and the gifts that they have, but I agree that it can place a burden on women.  If a woman struggles, does that now mean that there is something wrong with her.  Similarly, it implies that men, no matter what they do, will never have that spirituality.

Thank you for expressing these ideas so clearly.

[CA Steve]

Excellent post M&G.

[Buzzard]

Don't underestimate the fact that us men can skillfully use such stereotypes to justify behavior that would not be condoned, because, "hey were just guys, we can't help it".
I see SOME of this in the church.  I see a ton of these sentiments in the world.

[thesometimesaint]

[wenglund]

mercyngrace, on 30 April 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Do you believe that women are innately smarter, more charitable, and more spiritual than men?

I believe women tend to be smarter in terms of the "whats" of life, whereas men tend to be smarter in terms of the "whys." For this reason I also believe that women tend to be more charitable and spiritual in a superficial sense, whereas men tend to be more charitable and spiritual in an in-depth sense--as may be demonstrated by the reactions to this post.

Quote

What authoritative evidence validates your position (statements by GAs, scriptures, etc, not anecdotes)?

No LDS sources come to mind. However, according to the Talmud, women have greater faith, greater powers of discernment, and are more tenderhearted than men. (see HERE)

"According to traditional Judaism, women are endowed with a greater degree of "binah" (intuition, understanding, intelligence) than men. The rabbis inferred this from the fact that woman was "built" (Gen. 2:22) rather than "formed" (Gen. 2:7), and the Hebrew root of "build" has the same consonants as the word "binah." It has been said that the matriarchs (Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah) were superior to the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) in prophecy. Women did not participate in the idolatry regarding the Golden Calf. See Rosh Chodesh below. Some traditional sources suggest that women are closer to G-d's ideal than men."(The Role of Women in Judaism)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Log]

Make of this what you will.

Brigham Young said:

A few remarks on woman.  She is the glory of the man, but she is not at the head in all the creations of God.  Pertaining to his children on this earth, she is not accountable for the sins that are in the world.  God requires obedience for man, he is Lord of creation, and at his hand the sins of the world will be required.  Could the female portions of the human family fully understand this, they would see that they are objects of tender mercy, and greatly blessed.  This no doubt on a casual view appears to my sisters a glorious doctrine for them; and some might be tempted in their ignorance to take unwarrantable liberties, corrupt themselves with sin, and then take shelter under the doctrine that man alone is culpable for the sins they commit.

  There are, however, restrictions placed upon woman.  I will quote a passage of scripture to illustrate this.  "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."  When the crime was thus atoned for, then was she free, and prepared to receive in full the blessings she otherwise would have received had she not committed sin.  Women must atone for sins committed by the volition of her own choice, but she will never become an angel to the Devil, and sin so far as to place herself beyond the reach of mercy.  She will suffer all that she has strength to suffer according to the venality of her sins.

[Duncan]

http://www.lds.org/g...uality?lang=eng

I love this talk by Elder Oaks about spirituality! I have a question how would you diplomatically say that their is no gender difference when it comes to spirituality? as a guy you could be branded as a mysogynist

[Senator]

Log, on 30 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Make of this what you will.

He was speaking as a man.

Whether there is any truth to his ideas?,,...well as you say, make of it as you will.

[wenglund]

Senator, on 30 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

He was speaking as a man.

I am not sure. However, I have no doubt that you are here speaking as a man.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[bluebell]

Senator, on 30 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

He was speaking as a man.

Whether there is any truth to his ideas?,,...well as you say, make of it as you will.

I'm inclined to agree with you.  His words seem to very much match the gender notions of his time period, but beyond that, has any other prophet of God taught such?  Do the teachings of church right now mirror his words (do they teach that only men can become sons of perdition, for example)?

If not, then that would seem to me to be strong evidence that this was BY's opinion, and not doctrine.

[thesometimesaint]

Women no less or more than men live in a fallen world.

[JDave]

mercyngrace,

I agree and thought you did a marvelous job putting it in words.

I think that the teaching is a manifestation of an over-correction from earlier cultural views that were harsher and more denigrating for women.  I don't know if one could trace the curve of the swing in teachings by way of documented statements, but it would be intriguing to do so.  It is doubtful that the change was made quickly, and more likely that the original intent of any changes was to emphasize that women are just as capable and spiritual as men are.

It is also likely that the over-correction was initiated by such simple things as self-deprecating humor from male leaders in the church.  I would guess that at some point that joking was taken to be doctrinal.

[BCSpace]

I've not heard in the Church that women are smarter than men.  I do disagree with the notion that women are more spiritual than men.  I think men typically go longer without a desire for spiritual recharge (Church or "churchy" stuff) whether they need it or not.  Men are typically not prone to much speaking or tolerance for lecturing which means that Church as currently structured is more for women than men.  We can grunt out the doctrine in 10 mins and be ready to go as far as doing our duty.  "Just do it dammit" is our Golden SWK.

[MorningStar]

In a singles ward I was in, a member of the bishopric blurted out during Gospel Doctrine, "Women are better than men!  They are naturally more spiritual.  If it weren't for the priesthood, we would be good for nothing!"  The girls' jaws dropped, some guys nodded in agreement, and a few other guys looked rather dismayed.

[Bob Crockett]

mercyngrace, on 30 April 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Do you believe that women are innately smarter, more charitable, and more spiritual than men?

I am not willing to rule out a "yes."   it seems there are more female college students than men.   I suspect that standardized college board tests show no significant differences, but I also suspect that more women then men take those tests.

My eyeball experience in small branches and large wards is that more women attend church than men, in the LDS Church.   My anecdotal experience as a one-time local church leader is that divorced women are much more likely to attend services than divorced men, and that in homes where one spouse is a member and the other is not, it is much more likely that the female will attend church services when she is the LDS member, as opposed to the male attending when he's the member.

When I cast my eyeballs into Catholic churches in California, Mexico and Brazil, I see lots more women in mass and heading to confessionals than men.  When I eyeball evangelical services in the U.S., I see way more women in the services than men.  

As far as charitable is concerned, I have no eyeball experience.

[LDS_RM]

I believe this false teaching about genders, spirituality, and priesthood came about because a natural person was usurping the place of God in order to conjure an answer to a question only God can answer. I ha e heard this false teaching many times throughout my life. I do not believe there is a doctrinal basis for it, nor do I believe there is an authoritative source for it.  Concerning the BY quote posted by log, it does not seem to pass the Doctrine test outlined by the Church

[calmoriah]

Other cultures have men attending religious ceremonies more than women so I don't see attendance as an indicator of much more than liking to attend church services at this point.  One has to remove cultural influences, which I don't see possible at this point.

As far as college, not so long ago it was the reverse, so that would seem to be highly  cultural influenced.  One would have to remove that variable at least before being able to draw conclusions there.

Charity, I see women more involved with community organized events, but men are just as prone imo to do independent charity so I don't see any significant difference demonstrated there either.

[calmoriah]

Many people tend to judge other people less harshly than they do themselves and love tends to inflate the value of the other in the lover's eyes, thus their spouse appears to them more spiritual, etc.

Since men have generally been the speakers more often at higher levels than women, we have heard mentions of spiritually impressive wives more often than we have heard stories of spiritually impressive husbands.  Over time, I think this judgment has been assumed for all women in general.

I don't buy it having heard it from the other side, plus having observed both men and women in action.

Women have tested as more prone to engage in visible religious activities such as attending church in Western cultures, but one should not assume that visible, external spiritual activities correspond directly to invisible, internal spiritual attitudes.

Edited by calmoriah, 30 April 2012 - 10:45 AM.