23 replies to this topic

[bu11fr0g]

When is it reasonable for me to expect them not to be wrong?
When is it reasonable for me to expect them to be invariably correct?

Is it reasonable to expect me to discern that a comment made in general conference by an apostle is incorrect and does not apply?  How can I tell if I am off base in my personal revelation?

[Storm Rider]

Bullfrog, this is an interesting question that I think many LDS would ask themselves.  I think there may be a number of different answers for different people.  For me the standard is very high.  If I cannot find what is stated in the scriptures, the four standard works, of the Church then I feel relatively free to not rely on what is stated as doctrine or an eternal truth.

If a statement is added to the Standard Works of the Church then I then am able to recognize it as a truth that I should abide.

For me, apostles are prophets are first are foremost men.  They each have been called of God to serve in various capacities; they serve willingly and they try to serve in the best way they are capable.  However, as men they will fall short of the mark, will err, and will fail.  These failures should not be a reflection of their calling or the mantle they wear, but it should reflect that they are just men and exhibit the frailties of all mankind.

Anyone that knows the scriptures must acknowledge that all the men that God has called to serve have been frail and weak.  The leaders of the Latter-day Church are no weaker than the leaders of Christ's ancient Church.  The leaders of Christ's ancient Church were no weaker than the prophets called in ancient Israel.  When we take leadership in context of the examples that have been set for us from the dawn of time, it is readily apparent that men are always imperfect and yet God takes their weaknesses and from these instruments his Will is accomplished.  That is the truly amazing thing about God; he is willing to work with each of us, to love us, to use us, and never rejects the willing heart that seeks to serve.

[Messenger]

I think that it has already been determined what "reasonable expectations" there are in not only leadership, but members of the church.  We call those things standards - the things we interview with when be become a member, take on callings, and become temple recommend holders.  Everything else is just what we bring to the table - whether or not its a positive or a negative thing, is left to everyone else to think about I guess.

[Kevin Christensen]

The scriptural references here are pertinent, I think.

http://en.fairmormon...eeing_the_truth

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA

[mercyngrace]

bu11fr0g, on 30 April 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

When is it reasonable for me to expect them not to be wrong?

Never.

Quote

When is it reasonable for me to expect them to be invariably correct?

When you are edified (D&C 50).

Quote

Is it reasonable to expect me to discern that a comment made in general conference by an apostle is incorrect and does not apply?

Yes.

Quote

How can I tell if I am off base in my personal revelation?

The absence of the Spirit and its fruits.

[rameumptom]

I think it is our responsibility to take the things they teach us at General Conference, ponder them, study them, reference them to the scriptures, and then prayerfully gain our own testimony of them.  If after doing our sincere part, we do not gain a witness, such teachings are not binding upon us as individuals.

The exception would be for things presented to the entire Church as doctrine.  Such becomes binding upon us as those who have entered into the covenant.

[ERayR]

bu11fr0g, on 30 April 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

When is it reasonable for me to expect them not to be wrong?
When is it reasonable for me to expect them to be invariably correct?

Is it reasonable to expect me to discern that a comment made in general conference by an apostle is incorrect and does not apply?  How can I tell if I am off base in my personal revelation?

Develop your relationship to the point that you yourself can and do receive personal revelation on things pertinent to you.  Then ask and wait for the answers.

[Log]

What ERayR said.  Obtain your own oracles, and you will not need that any man should teach you.

[Messenger]

This thread has been good for me.  I tend to have expectations of others which is partly my own trait, and also a trait with most people that have ADHD.  So, I am learning that I cant.  Afterall, its just a calling that people have and the best thing to do when they fall short of my expectations is to remember that I no doubt fall short of other peoples expectations.  Today I was reminded of that.  I am out of food because the company cut $400 out of everyone in our group's monthly wages. Yep, I pay tithing and I pay fast offering even though I cant fast.  So, I was inspired to ask for a food order until I can figure things out, either new job or a 2nd job.  (I have interviews tomorrow by the way).  So you can imagine my disappointment when I went to our pre-scheduled pick up of the food order and the R.S. president wasn't home - no voice mail, either.  So, I did what I had to do and purchased some groceries on my credit card. And, tonight I will do some praying to get rid of this awful feeling I have towards the R.S. President.  People are people, they often don't understand the shoes that someone else wears.  I am hoping and praying that that water will run right off my back.

Edited by Messenger, 03 May 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[theplains]

Storm Rider, on 30 April 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

For me the standard is very high.  If I cannot find what is stated in the scriptures, the four standard works, of the Church then I feel relatively free to not rely on what is stated as doctrine or an eternal truth.

Have you ever known any Apostle in the history of the Mormon Church to state that something taught by a present or
past Apostle of said church was clearly false and needed to be treated as a heretical teaching?

Thanks,
Jim

[Saints Alive]

theplains, on 03 May 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Have you ever known any Apostle in the history of the Mormon Church to state that something taught by a present or
past Apostle of said church was clearly false and needed to be treated as a heretical teaching?

Thanks,
Jim

the priesthood ban comes to mind.

[bu11fr0g]

Adam-God
blood Atonement
Blacks as fence-sitters
Catholic church as Church of the devil
Oath of revenge against US

[Storm Rider]

bu11fr0g, on 05 May 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

Adam-God
blood Atonement
Blacks as fence-sitters
Catholic church as Church of the devil
Oath of revenge against US

Yup, that is the list that I would write.  "Theplains" does this work for you?

[Monster]

My expectation is only that they live up to what they claim to be. They claim to be prophets seers and revelatiors. That is a pretty grandiose claim but if you claim it then you need to be it. To me that mens no mistakes no second guessing. If they want to have less expected of then then they need to claim that they are less.

[LDSToronto]

mercyngrace, on 30 April 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Never.


When you are edified (D&C 50).

This means that when a prophet says only one pair of earrings is appropriate, and some women are edified and others aren't, then the words of the prophets are only subjectively true.

H.

[TrespassersW]

Monster, on 06 May 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

My expectation is only that they live up to what they claim to be. They claim to be prophets seers and revelatiors. That is a pretty grandiose claim but if you claim it then you need to be it. To me that mens no mistakes no second guessing. If they want to have less expected of then then they need to claim that they are less.

They claim to be prophets seers and revelators, but also claim that prophets, seers and revelators are mortal men and are not infallible.
It's fine if you reject this latter claim, but recognize that you are judging them only partly by what they claim and partly by your own conception of what it means to be a prophet.

[calmoriah]

Monster, on 06 May 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

To me that mens no mistakes no second guessing.

In everything or in just some things that are their spiritual stewardship (and what would that be if you agree that it is limited)?  

And what do you based your conclusion for infallibility on?

[why me]

LDSToronto, on 06 May 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

This means that when a prophet says only one pair of earrings is appropriate, and some women are edified and others aren't, then the words of the prophets are only subjectively true.

H.

And I would think that this would be good advice for people to follow. We are not just dealing with women but also with men. Not to mention body piercings. It is getting a little out of hand with the piercings since body piercings are now considered to be body art.

[TrespassersW]

LDSToronto, on 06 May 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

This means that when a prophet says only one pair of earrings is appropriate, and some women are edified and others aren't, then the words of the prophets are only subjectively true.

Yes and no.
Yes, in that you may determine, by the Spirit, that such advice was given according to their own preferences and did necessarily come from God.
No, in that if I believe that the prophet has been authorized by God to guide the church and set policy for it, then I should recognize that God will support those policies and that guidance, even if it was not initiated by Him.

LDS have been given no promise that their leaders will be factually accurate in all their statements. They have been assured that they will be blessed for following their leaders' counsel.

[why me]

bu11fr0g, on 30 April 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

When is it reasonable for me to expect them not to be wrong?
When is it reasonable for me to expect them to be invariably correct?

Is it reasonable to expect me to discern that a comment made in general conference by an apostle is incorrect and does not apply?  How can I tell if I am off base in my personal revelation?

When I was listening to General Conference I was seeing if there was anything that I could actively disagree with. But this last conference, it was rather difficult to find something that got my goat. However, in the past, I did not take to the obedience idea  and to the idea of perfection very well. I thought that they were wrong with stressing this. And I still think that I was right. I never considered myself to be a dog when it came to obedience and I knew that I could never be perfect. So, I let those words go in one ear and out the other.

No harm done. But where they right? I still don't know.