Culture Or Doctrine? Is It Ever Appropriate.....

[TruthSeeker24]

I am wondering if the issue ought to be less about giving unsolicited advice, and more about the appropriate way to respond if the advice is thought best not to be taken?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Good point. I've had a few times where someone gave me advice that I felt should not have been given. I honestly don't have a right or wrong answer. As in the case of this threads main point, I think this is a very grey area. Usually I just respond with a smile and say, "Will do." I'm not sure if that's necessarily right or wrong though. I think the problem is that this kind of an issue is very relative. For one person, the advice might have been absolutely necessary, while another person might view it as completely wrong. Because of this, I still find it necessary to respond nicely and humbly regardless of whether the advice was warranted or not.

[DBMormon]

As a Bishop, I am thrilled to have anyone's advice as long as given in a respectful way..... I have always felt some of my best moments of inspiration have been in stealing the inspiration of others.

[mercyngrace]

I am wondering if the issue ought to be less about giving unsolicited advice, and more about the appropriate way to respond if the advice is thought best not to be taken?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

There is an older sister I know who loudly makes her feelings known about every perceived misstep of her church leaders. I pretty much watch her as an example to avoid (sad but true). Still, if the issue matters, there ought to be a reasonable way to address it without causing or giving offense. And if the one offering counsel is wrong, then the roles may end up being reversed as the conversation proceeds but the same conscientious and charitable approach should be employed.

[wenglund]

There is an older sister I know who loudly makes her feelings known about every perceived misstep of her church leaders. I pretty much watch her as an example to avoid (sad but true). Still, if the issue matters, there ought to be a reasonable way to address it without causing or giving offense. And if the one offering counsel is wrong, then the roles may end up being reversed as the conversation proceeds but the same conscientious and charitable approach should be employed.

Given my invariably uplifting experience with you on this board and the admirable tempered spirit of what you have said here in this thread, I don't have the least concern about you giving advise as you see fit. Just try and not be too disappointed if the person doesn't have the good sense to take it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Carborendum]

To your original question: Is it ever appropriate...?

Yes. All the time. We have freedom to speak. I don't see why it would make any difference if you are male or female. So, I wonder why you phrased it that way. As long as we do it with courtesy and humility, there is no commandment forbidding it. The line is only crossed when we decide to implement the correction to an established policy without going through the proper channels--or something along those lines. You obviously can't change something you have no authority over. And you don't have authority to force anyone to do anything. But apart from things like that, there is no prohibition from simply speaking.

To the question on the separate thread: Are women inherently smarter, more charitable, more spiritual?

Smarter, no. I think men and women are generally equal in the intellect department. It is only cultural influences that tend to skew the statistics one way or the other.

More Charitable--don't know. There is too much influence from culture to determine by observation. And there is precious little said by Church leaders on that matter.

More Spiritual--Yes, and No. We've heard that Woman was the pinnacle of God's creations (because Eve was the final creation before pronouncing it good). This was from a General Conference talk, not just hearsay. This leads one to believe so. But we have so many examples of good spiritually strong men in history. I believe a lot of what we see today is, again, cultural influence.

To this specific situation -- I don't know why you need to bring it up to these individuals specifically. It is a pervasive belief in Church culture. To single out these men alone isn't looking at the big picture. But during discussions in Sunday School, Relief Society, or talks in Sacrament, if the topic comes up, I see no reason why you couldn't voice your own opinion. I would LOVE to hear a woman say that in Gospel Doctrine. That way, it isn't just trying to correct a few individuals, but hopefully it could change the culture of the ward.

ALSO: Remember that YOU are the boys' mother. YOU have the authority and the DUTY to be the chief instructor of all things spiritual. I'm new and I don't know you personally, so I find it curious that you don't mention anything of your husband in this matter. Is he one of the men you mention? If not, what does he have to say about it? Or is he "in the picture"? My apologies if I'm getting too personal on that issue.

[mercyngrace]

To your original question: Is it ever appropriate...?

Yes. All the time. We have freedom to speak. I don't see why it would make any difference if you are male or female. So, I wonder why you phrased it that way. As long as we do it with courtesy and humility, there is no commandment forbidding it. The line is only crossed when we decide to implement the correction to an established policy without going through the proper channels--or something along those lines. You obviously can't change something you have no authority over. And you don't have authority to force anyone to do anything. But apart from things like that, there is no prohibition from simply speaking.

I phrased it as I did because there have been some interesting threads regarding gender roles on the board in the last couple of weeks to include this comment: I preside in a sense that my name is the family name and that in formal situations I am the point of contact for all outside communication.

To this specific situation -- I don't know why you need to bring it up to these individuals specifically. It is a pervasive belief in Church culture. To single out these men alone isn't looking at the big picture. But during discussions in Sunday School, Relief Society, or talks in Sacrament, if the topic comes up, I see no reason why you couldn't voice your own opinion. I would LOVE to hear a woman say that in Gospel Doctrine. That way, it isn't just trying to correct a few individuals, but hopefully it could change the culture of the ward.

I have NO problem speaking up in class and don't hesitate to say what I really think. This situation is a little different because I don't know the speaker, he was a visiting representative from the stake.

ALSO: Remember that YOU are the boys' mother. YOU have the authority and the DUTY to be the chief instructor of all things spiritual. I'm new and I don't know you personally, so I find it curious that you don't mention anything of your husband in this matter. Is he one of the men you mention? If not, what does he have to say about it? Or is he "in the picture"? My apologies if I'm getting too personal on that issue.

No apology necessary. I corrected his words while he was speaking. I was passing notes to my oldest son fast and furiously during the talk. And we've discussed the topic at length as a family in the last 24 hours. Sometimes though, speaking up at home just doesn't seem like enough of a remedy. My husband is "in the picture" and supports me completely. He thinks I should send the email. He will not, however, make that decision for me and would never push me to make any decision of which I am unsure.

That's why I brought it here - to discuss with people who will gladly tell me if they think I'm wrong.

Edited April 30, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Log]

No apology necessary. I corrected his words while he was speaking. I was passing notes to my oldest son fast and furiously during the talk. And we've discussed the topic at length as a family in the last 24 hours. Sometimes though, speaking up at home just doesn't seem like enough of a remedy.

"Kids, remember that mom can be just as depraved and unholy as any man can be! "

Must remember that for next FHE.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Log

[mercyngrace]

"Kids, remember that mom can be just as depraved and unholy as any man can be! "

Must remember that for next FHE.

Actually it was "Son, you are not stupid. You have the same ability to be spiritual, charitable, and Christ-like as any of God's children, male or female!"

[alexlds]

re "Wenglund"'s talmud post - there is also a tradition that one meaning of the word "complete" was "finished" and vica versa. So,. . . before a man is married he is "incomplete" - so then after he gets married . . he is finished . . . . ??.

Havnt found a section for jokes on here yet BTW . . . praps it should be called "Lighten Up, Folks" ??

[mfbukowski]

Is it ever appropriate for a sister to offer unsolicited counsel to a priesthood leader?

How about a priesthood holder? Is it appropriate for him to offer unsolicited counsel to one of his leaders?

Upon what do you base your opinion?

1) Yes to both.

2) Experience. It happens all the time.

[mfbukowski]

For all of you who said this would be fine, how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

I would apologize, evaluate her concerns and then seek to remedy the situation if I thought her counsel was valid, or if I found that I had offended someone.

[mfbukowski]

I don't know the brother personally which is why this is difficult. If I knew him, odds are we'd be friends and I wouldn't hesitate to speak up. There is also the simple fact that I've spoken and taught in church enough to know that we all misspeak from time to time. To complicate the issue, the same concept was reiterated by two other speakers, one a young missionary, and the other one of my son's teachers. All good people, and all teaching an idea that I feel is damaging. Having likely done the same many times through my own spiritual journey, I'm inclined to let it go.

OH- the whole "women are better than men" deal.

Don't give it another thought. Go tell him what you think. You may be the only one with the guts to set him straight. Obviously, knowing you, it will be with great tact and humility and kindness.

Go right now.

Why are you still sitting there?

Edited May 1, 2012 by mfbukowski

[wenglund]

re "Wenglund"'s talmud post - there is also a tradition that one meaning of the word "complete" was "finished" and vica versa. So,. . . before a man is married he is "incomplete" - so then after he gets married . . he is finished . . . . ??.

Havent found a section for jokes on here yet BTW . . . praps it should be called "Lighten Up, Folks" ??

I got a good chuckle out of that one.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I use this section or forum quite a bit for joking--not that my jokes are all that funny.

have found that here there is a tendency to get way too heady, rancorous, and to take ourselves too seriously, and so it is nice every once in awhile to clear the dense fog of inter-locution with a welcomed breath of comedic fresh air.

Besides, there are also a lot of unintended jokes posted on this forum as well. So, I am not sure a separate forum for humor is needed.

However, if one is created, I like your suggested name for it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

Besides, there are also a lot of unintended jokes posted on this forum as well. So, I am not sure a separate forum for humor is needed.

Indeed some of us ARE "unintended jokes"!

[rpn]

Maybe you ask the bishop/leader a question, "how can I raise my sons with the feedback they heard last week?"

[The Nehor]

There is an older sister I know who loudly makes her feelings known about every perceived misstep of her church leaders. I pretty much watch her as an example to avoid (sad but true). Still, if the issue matters, there ought to be a reasonable way to address it without causing or giving offense. And if the one offering counsel is wrong, then the roles may end up being reversed as the conversation proceeds but the same conscientious and charitable approach should be employed.

That's not offering counsel since she is telling everyone. We have a word for that: murmuring and the scriptures make it clear murmurers go to hell.

[Carborendum]

I just had an interesting thought about this topic.

For those of you who have seen the DVD "17 Miracles", help me with my memory of people's names.

1) The story centered around one man who asserted that there were dangers & difficulties ahead due to the weather/season. They should NOT proceed.

2) The Priesthood leadership at the time called him to repentance for not having enough faith.

3) After he had voiced his opinion, and was called to repentance, he chose to repent that his words may have caused any issues.

4) That leader who called him to repentance pointed out that staying in place wasn't an option either. The people didn't have the supplies nor money to buy enough food for the entire winter. No towns within hundreds of miles were large enough to give work or supplies to a group that large.

5) Later, that same leader found the treacherous frozen rivers and miles of snow-covered landscape across jagged terrain to challenge his own faith, saying,"You have every reason to throw this back in my face." The main character declined to do so.

Even though he was absolutely right, even though he gave this warning out of careful consideration, even though he did it in humility, even though he was simply doing what he had been asked to do (give his opinion) he was still called to repentance for essentially causing dissension in the ranks.

I don't think what you have in mind will cause much dissension. But even if you are 100% right, polite, humble, and hones, there will be those that do not appreciate your message.