41 replies to this topic

[rameumptom]

I think there are times when we can offer them ideas we've had. And then we must allow them to do what they will with the advice. With a new stake presidency where I lived in Alabama, I once suggested to one of the counselors that the stake has been struggling for several years due to how the ward boundaries were drawn up, making such small wards they were always struggling (5 wards, 8 branches of about 50 members).  I suggested they change the boundaries, and perhaps even reduce the number of wards to strengthen the center of the stake.  About a year later, they reduced the wards down to 4, and redrew boundaries.  After I suggested it, I didn't give it another thought.

[wenglund]

mercyngrace, on 29 April 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

For all of you who said this would be fine,  how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

Do they offer any other kind of counsel?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[TruthSeeker24]

mercyngrace, on 29 April 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Is it ever appropriate for a sister to offer unsolicited counsel to a priesthood leader?

How about a priesthood holder?  Is it appropriate for him to offer unsolicited counsel to one of his leaders?

Upon what do you base your opinion?

I love this question. Though I don't believe there to be a right or wrong answer to it, I do have some general opinions on the matter. I think it's important to consider the sensitivity most men have in regards to receiving advice. I believe a man should be humble enough to take it, especially when its given in light of wanting the man to be a better person, but it still isn't an easy task. My wife and I worked out a simple strategy so she could give me advice when she felt I was doing something wrong, and it has worked wonders. All she does is ask if she can give me some advice. I don't know what it is, or why it works, but for some reason, the mere fact that she ASKS me if she can give me some advice takes away all negative feelings and/or thoughts. I'm easily ready, able, willing, and actually WANTING to listen to her advice. I also believe that men should ask men if its ok for them to give advice. I do know that in the 19th century it was considered rather rude to give advice without first asking to give it, and I believe it to still be rather rude. So yes, I believe it is ok for a woman to give a Priesthood holder advice (wife or not), but I think its important that words are chosen carefully, and that the woman ASKS if she can give it. And if the Priesthood holder says no, well then he's either not humble, or he knows something about the woman that makes the man not trust her words. In most cases though, I'm sure it would be a lack of humility on the Priesthood holders end. But no, I am strongly against unsolicited advice. However, if the woman asks to give it, then it no longer becomes unsolicited.

[JDave]

mercyngrace, on 29 April 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

For all of you who said this would be fine,  how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

I had a sister do just that this last week and I had no problem with it.

I must say that I really liked TruthSeeker's point about asking to give advice.  That is such a kind way of starting out and brings everyone to some common point before proceeding.

[wenglund]

I am wondering if the issue ought to be less about giving unsolicited advice, and more about the appropriate way to respond if the advice is thought best not to be taken?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[TruthSeeker24]

wenglund, on 30 April 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

I am wondering if the issue ought to be less about giving unsolicited advice, and more about the appropriate way to respond if the advice is thought best not to be taken?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Good point. I've had a few times where someone gave me advice that I felt should not have been given. I honestly don't have a right or wrong answer. As in the case of this threads main point, I think this is a very grey area. Usually I just respond with a smile and say, "Will do." I'm not sure if that's necessarily right or wrong though. I think the problem is that this kind of an issue is very relative. For one person, the advice might have been absolutely necessary, while another person might view it as completely wrong. Because of this, I still find it necessary to respond nicely and humbly regardless of whether the advice was warranted or not.

[DBMormon]

As a Bishop, I am thrilled to have anyone's advice as long as given in a respectful way..... I have always felt some of my best moments of inspiration have been in stealing the inspiration of others.

[mercyngrace]

wenglund, on 30 April 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

I am wondering if the issue ought to be less about giving unsolicited advice, and more about the appropriate way to respond if the advice is thought best not to be taken?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

There is an older sister I know who loudly makes her feelings known about every perceived misstep of her church leaders. I pretty much watch her as an example to avoid (sad but true). Still, if the issue matters, there ought to be a reasonable way to address it without causing or giving offense. And if the one offering counsel is wrong, then the roles may end up being reversed as the conversation proceeds but the same conscientious and charitable approach should be employed.

[wenglund]

mercyngrace, on 30 April 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

There is an older sister I know who loudly makes her feelings known about every perceived misstep of her church leaders. I pretty much watch her as an example to avoid (sad but true). Still, if the issue matters, there ought to be a reasonable way to address it without causing or giving offense. And if the one offering counsel is wrong, then the roles may end up being reversed as the conversation proceeds but the same conscientious and charitable approach should be employed.

Given my invariably uplifting experience with you on this board and the admirable tempered spirit of what you have said here in this thread, I don't have the least concern about you giving advise as you see fit. Just try and not be too disappointed if the person doesn't have the good sense to take it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Carborendum]

To your original question: Is it ever appropriate...?

Yes.  All the time.  We have freedom to speak.  I don't see why it would make any difference if you are male or female.  So, I wonder why you phrased it that way.  As long as we do it with courtesy and humility, there is no commandment forbidding it.  The line is only crossed when we decide to implement the correction to an established policy without going through the proper channels--or something along those lines.  You obviously can't change something you have no authority over.  And you don't have authority to force anyone to do anything.  But apart from things like that, there is no prohibition from simply speaking.

To the question on the separate thread: Are women inherently smarter, more charitable, more spiritual?

Smarter, no.  I think men and women are generally equal in the intellect department.  It is only cultural influences that tend to skew the statistics one way or the other.

More Charitable--don't know.  There is too much influence from culture to determine by observation.  And there is precious little said by Church leaders on that matter.

More Spiritual--Yes, and No.  We've heard that Woman was the pinnacle of God's creations (because Eve was the final creation before pronouncing it good).  This was from a General Conference talk, not just hearsay.  This leads one to believe so.  But we have so many examples of good spiritually strong men in history.  I believe a lot of what we see today is, again, cultural influence.

To this specific situation -- I don't know why you need to bring it up to these individuals specifically.  It is a pervasive belief in Church culture.  To single out these men alone isn't looking at the big picture.  But during discussions in Sunday School, Relief Society, or talks in Sacrament, if the topic comes up, I see no reason why you couldn't voice your own opinion.  I would LOVE to hear a woman say that in Gospel Doctrine.  That way, it isn't just trying to correct a few individuals, but hopefully it could change the culture of the ward.

ALSO: Remember that YOU are the boys' mother. YOU have the authority and the DUTY to be the chief instructor of all things spiritual.  I'm new and I don't know you personally, so I find it curious that you don't mention anything of your husband in this matter.  Is he one of the men you mention?  If not, what does he have to say about it?  Or is he "in the picture"?  My apologies if I'm getting too personal on that issue.

[mercyngrace]

Carborendum, on 30 April 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

To your original question: Is it ever appropriate...?

Yes.  All the time.  We have freedom to speak.  I don't see why it would make any difference if you are male or female.  So, I wonder why you phrased it that way.  As long as we do it with courtesy and humility, there is no commandment forbidding it.  The line is only crossed when we decide to implement the correction to an established policy without going through the proper channels--or something along those lines.  You obviously can't change something you have no authority over.  And you don't have authority to force anyone to do anything.  But apart from things like that, there is no prohibition from simply speaking.

I phrased it as I did because there have been some interesting threads regarding gender roles on the board in the last couple of weeks to include this comment:   I preside in a sense that my name is the family name and that in formal situations I am the point of contact for all outside communication.

Quote

To this specific situation -- I don't know why you need to bring it up to these individuals specifically.  It is a pervasive belief in Church culture.  To single out these men alone isn't looking at the big picture.  But during discussions in Sunday School, Relief Society, or talks in Sacrament, if the topic comes up, I see no reason why you couldn't voice your own opinion.  I would LOVE to hear a woman say that in Gospel Doctrine.  That way, it isn't just trying to correct a few individuals, but hopefully it could change the culture of the ward.

I have NO problem speaking up in class and don't hesitate to say what I really think. This situation is a little different because I don't know the speaker, he was a visiting representative from the stake.

Quote

ALSO: Remember that YOU are the boys' mother. YOU have the authority and the DUTY to be the chief instructor of all things spiritual.  I'm new and I don't know you personally, so I find it curious that you don't mention anything of your husband in this matter.  Is he one of the men you mention?  If not, what does he have to say about it?  Or is he "in the picture"?  My apologies if I'm getting too personal on that issue.

No apology necessary. I corrected his words while he was speaking. I was passing notes to my oldest son fast and furiously during the talk. And we've discussed the topic at length as a family in the last 24 hours. Sometimes though, speaking up at home just doesn't seem like enough of a remedy. My husband is "in the picture" and supports me completely.  He thinks I should send the email. He will not, however, make that decision for me and would never push me to make any decision of which I am unsure.

That's why I brought it here - to discuss with people who will gladly tell me if they think I'm wrong.

Edited by mercyngrace, 30 April 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Log]

mercyngrace, on 30 April 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

No apology necessary. I corrected his words while he was speaking. I was passing notes to my oldest son fast and furiously during the talk. And we've discussed the topic at length as a family in the last 24 hours. Sometimes though, speaking up at home just doesn't seem like enough of a remedy.

"Kids, remember that mom can be just as depraved and unholy as any man can be!   "

Must remember that for next FHE.

Edited by Log, 30 April 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[mercyngrace]

Log, on 30 April 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

"Kids, remember that mom can be just as depraved and unholy as any man can be!   "

Must remember that for next FHE.

Actually it was "Son, you are not stupid. You have the same ability to be spiritual, charitable, and Christ-like as any of God's children, male or female!"

[alexlds]

re "Wenglund"'s talmud post - there is also a tradition that one meaning of the word "complete" was "finished" and vica versa. So,. . . before a man is married he is "incomplete" - so then after he gets married  . . he is finished . . . . ??.  

Havnt found a section for jokes on here yet BTW . . . praps it should be called "Lighten Up, Folks" ??

[mfbukowski]

mercyngrace, on 29 April 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Is it ever appropriate for a sister to offer unsolicited counsel to a priesthood leader?

How about a priesthood holder?  Is it appropriate for him to offer unsolicited counsel to one of his leaders?

Upon what do you base your opinion?

1) Yes to both.
2) Experience.   It happens all the time.

[mfbukowski]

mercyngrace, on 29 April 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

For all of you who said this would be fine,  how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

I would apologize, evaluate her concerns and then seek to remedy the situation if I thought her counsel was valid, or if I found that I had offended someone.

[mfbukowski]

mercyngrace, on 30 April 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

I don't know the brother personally which is why this is difficult.  If I knew him, odds are we'd be friends and I wouldn't hesitate to speak up.  There is also the simple fact that  I've spoken and taught in church enough to know that we all misspeak from time to time. To complicate the issue, the same concept was reiterated by two other speakers, one a young missionary, and the other one of my son's teachers. All good people, and all teaching an idea that I feel is damaging. Having likely done the same many times through my own spiritual journey, I'm inclined to let it go.

OH- the whole "women are better than men" deal.

Don't give it another thought.   Go tell him what you think.   You may be the only one with the guts to set him straight.   Obviously, knowing you, it will be with great tact and humility and kindness.

Go right now.  


Why are you still sitting there?   

Edited by mfbukowski, 30 April 2012 - 05:43 PM.

[wenglund]

alexlds, on 30 April 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

re "Wenglund"'s talmud post - there is also a tradition that one meaning of the word "complete" was "finished" and vica versa. So,. . . before a man is married he is "incomplete" - so then after he gets married  . . he is finished . . . . ??.  

Havent found a section for jokes on here yet BTW . . . praps it should be called "Lighten Up, Folks" ??

I got a good chuckle out of that one.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I use this section or forum quite a bit for joking--not that my jokes are all that funny.

have found that here there is a tendency to get way too heady, rancorous, and to take ourselves too seriously, and so it is nice every once in awhile to clear the dense fog of inter-locution with a welcomed breath of comedic fresh air.

Besides, there are also a lot of unintended jokes posted on this forum as well. So, I am not sure a separate forum for humor is needed.

However, if one is created, I like your suggested name for it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

wenglund, on 01 May 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Besides, there are also a lot of unintended jokes posted on this forum as well. So, I am not sure a separate forum for humor is needed.

Indeed some of us ARE "unintended jokes"!     

[rpn]

Maybe you ask the bishop/leader a question, "how can I raise my sons with the feedback they heard last week?"