Culture Or Doctrine? Is It Ever Appropriate.....

[mercyngrace]

Is it ever appropriate for a sister to offer unsolicited counsel to a priesthood leader?

How about a priesthood holder? Is it appropriate for him to offer unsolicited counsel to one of his leaders?

Upon what do you base your opinion?

[Log]

Is it ever appropriate for a sister to offer unsolicited counsel to a priesthood leader?

How about a priesthood holder? Is it appropriate for him to offer unsolicited counsel to one of his leaders?

Upon what do you base your opinion?

Yes to all two of those questions. I base my opinion on the teachings of Brigham Young.

If any member in the Church that has not the Priesthood should see one doing wrong that had the Priesthood and he should correct him in the spirit of meekness and humility and the man having the Priesthood should rise up in anger and say, "Oh you have no business to correct me, I have the Priesthood and am a great man." "Well" says the other, "I feel to warn you against evil, but we will wait and see how it will come out." Which is the most justified? The man without the Priesthood!

Edited April 30, 2012 by Log

[altersteve]

Counsel (advice), yes. Revelation, no.

[wenglund]

According to the Talmud: "Ten measures of speech were given to the world, and nine of them were allocated to women."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Log]

According to the Talmud: "Ten measures of speech were given to the world, and nine of them were allocated to women."

Which puts me in mind of another poetic aphorism: Women's faults are many, men have only two: everything they say, and everything they do.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Log

[Hamba Tuhan]

Yes to both.

Based primarily upon personal experience. Revelation (virtually) never occurs in a vacuum; consequently, it is our duty to feed priesthood leaders as much information as possible. We should, of course, attempt to make that information helpful and not just some personal whingeing, but I'd rather risk being over-informed rather than under-informed.

My bishop has repeatedly taught this principle, and, as I've served as the Young Men president/priests quorum advisor in my ward for the past six years, I've done everything I could to keep him informed in useful ways, including, when appropriate, offering counsel. Now that I've been called to serve as his counsellor, I feel even more strongly about the need to know what ward members are thinking.

BTW, this issue was addressed in either the last or the second-last worldwide leadership training broadcast: A sister in a ward (in Tonga?) had approached her bishop with a plan to help re-activate prospective elders, and the bishop had adopted it to excellent outcome. We were encouraged as leaders to be open to this process.

[mercyngrace]

For all of you who said this would be fine, how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

[CV75]

For all of you who said this would be fine, how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

I would go ahead and zip up my fly.

[Duncan]

For all of you who said this would be fine, how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

you should meet my Mom and two sisters! They tell it like it is but willing to receive counsel from their priesthood leaders! I sit in ward council mtg and everyone gives input and the Bishop makes a decision based on what he hears-mind you I have had leaders do the opposite, they make decisions and this is what is happening

[Kenngo1969]

I would go ahead and zip up my fly.

[Garden Girl]

Hmmm...like it or not, I do not hesitate to offer my opinion when I deem something important enough and want to voice my input. I do so in as diplomatc manner as possible, and only when I see some aspect I consider important not being addressed by the ph(s) in charge. This does not happen often because we have quite a good ward leadership. I guess my willingness to speak up comes from 30 years experience of working in advisory/supportive positions to leaders in male-dominated settings.

GG

[Calm]

Same here, GG.

[MorningStar]

I don't see anything wrong with it, but the person offering advice might be in for a disagreement.

[Mudcat]

IMO, I would pray about it first. If God keeps this issue on your heart, the Lord will appoint an appropriate time for you to address it.

Scripture says something about not muzzling the ox that...., but a good shot of penicillin now and again is timely for us all I expect.

[Hamba Tuhan]

For all of you who said this would be fine, how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

Since, I actually do do things wrong, I would listen to the counsel, weigh it, quite possibly share it with my bishop, and then act according to whether or not it was accurate. Why should I be concerned about the gender of the person offering the feedback???

[Storm Rider]

Is it ever appropriate for a sister to offer unsolicited counsel to a priesthood leader?

How about a priesthood holder? Is it appropriate for him to offer unsolicited counsel to one of his leaders?

Upon what do you base your opinion?

I am trying to rely on common sense. Would I ever offer advice or counsel to an individual I did not know? No. A person has to be seeking advice to receive; if he or she is not asking, they are not ready to hear it.

When I know someone and we are just talking about a myriad of topics, it is easy to bring up situations of concern and have a back and forth discussion. If I am in the role of someone that he or she trusts, I share advice when they ask for it.

It is a little bit like Jesus standing at the door knocking. We have to answer before he comes into our heart. People have to open their ears and hearts to hear counsel.

[Bernard Gui]

Is it ever appropriate for a sister to offer unsolicited counsel to a priesthood leader?

How about a priesthood holder? Is it appropriate for him to offer unsolicited counsel to one of his leaders?

Upon what do you base your opinion?

My mother lived in the ward of which I was bishop. She gave me unsolicited advice all the time.

Bernard

[mercyngrace]

IMO, I would pray about it first. If God keeps this issue on your heart, the Lord will appoint an appropriate time for you to address it.

Scripture says something about not muzzling the ox that...., but a good shot of penicillin now and again is timely for us all I expect.

Been praying and the issue still weighs on me but I am hesitant for reasons Storm Rider mentioned.

I am trying to rely on common sense. Would I ever offer advice or counsel to an individual I did not know? No. A person has to be seeking advice to receive; if he or she is not asking, they are not ready to hear it.

When I know someone and we are just talking about a myriad of topics, it is easy to bring up situations of concern and have a back and forth discussion. If I am in the role of someone that he or she trusts, I share advice when they ask for it.

It is a little bit like Jesus standing at the door knocking. We have to answer before he comes into our heart. People have to open their ears and hearts to hear counsel.

I don't know the brother personally which is why this is difficult. If I knew him, odds are we'd be friends and I wouldn't hesitate to speak up. There is also the simple fact that I've spoken and taught in church enough to know that we all misspeak from time to time. To complicate the issue, the same concept was reiterated by two other speakers, one a young missionary, and the other one of my son's teachers. All good people, and all teaching an idea that I feel is damaging. Having likely done the same many times through my own spiritual journey, I'm inclined to let it go.

Edited April 30, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Storm Rider]

Been praying and the issue still weighs on me but I am hesitant for reasons Storm Rider mentioned.

I don't know the brother personally which is why this is difficult. If I knew him, odds are we'd be friends and I wouldn't hesitate to speak up. There is also the simple fact that I've spoken and taught in church enough to know that we all misspeak from time to time. To complicate the issue, the same concept was reiterated by two other speakers, one a young missionary, and the other one of my son's teachers. All good people, and all teaching an idea that I feel is damaging. Having likely done the same many times through my own spiritual journey, I'm inclined to let it go.

This may be one of those times where you create an opportunity to talk the individual and then let the Spirit guide. The topic may be brought up in a very non-confrontational manner, as a discussion or something that confused you and you need clarification. Gentle questions first followed by statements of "I feel ...; does that make sense to you?" would help. Then instead of giving counsel or advice, you are just seeking clarification. Good luck. With gentleness and love unfeigned is the path you seek.

[mercyngrace]

This may be one of those times where you create an opportunity to talk the individual and then let the Spirit guide. The topic may be brought up in a very non-confrontational manner, as a discussion or something that confused you and you need clarification. Gentle questions first followed by statements of "I feel ...; does that make sense to you?" would help. Then instead of giving counsel or advice, you are just seeking clarification. Good luck. With gentleness and love unfeigned is the path you seek.

I started a thread about the actual content because I think the issue might be more widespread than just one or two local brethren. I value your advice Stormrider, if you don't mind, I'd appreciate your comments here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/57675-unintended-consequences-of-gender-bias-in-the-lds-church/

[rameumptom]

I think there are times when we can offer them ideas we've had. And then we must allow them to do what they will with the advice. With a new stake presidency where I lived in Alabama, I once suggested to one of the counselors that the stake has been struggling for several years due to how the ward boundaries were drawn up, making such small wards they were always struggling (5 wards, 8 branches of about 50 members). I suggested they change the boundaries, and perhaps even reduce the number of wards to strengthen the center of the stake. About a year later, they reduced the wards down to 4, and redrew boundaries. After I suggested it, I didn't give it another thought.

[wenglund]

For all of you who said this would be fine, how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

Do they offer any other kind of counsel?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[TruthSeeker24]

Is it ever appropriate for a sister to offer unsolicited counsel to a priesthood leader?

How about a priesthood holder? Is it appropriate for him to offer unsolicited counsel to one of his leaders?

Upon what do you base your opinion?

I love this question. Though I don't believe there to be a right or wrong answer to it, I do have some general opinions on the matter. I think it's important to consider the sensitivity most men have in regards to receiving advice. I believe a man should be humble enough to take it, especially when its given in light of wanting the man to be a better person, but it still isn't an easy task. My wife and I worked out a simple strategy so she could give me advice when she felt I was doing something wrong, and it has worked wonders. All she does is ask if she can give me some advice. I don't know what it is, or why it works, but for some reason, the mere fact that she ASKS me if she can give me some advice takes away all negative feelings and/or thoughts. I'm easily ready, able, willing, and actually WANTING to listen to her advice. I also believe that men should ask men if its ok for them to give advice. I do know that in the 19th century it was considered rather rude to give advice without first asking to give it, and I believe it to still be rather rude. So yes, I believe it is ok for a woman to give a Priesthood holder advice (wife or not), but I think its important that words are chosen carefully, and that the woman ASKS if she can give it. And if the Priesthood holder says no, well then he's either not humble, or he knows something about the woman that makes the man not trust her words. In most cases though, I'm sure it would be a lack of humility on the Priesthood holders end. But no, I am strongly against unsolicited advice. However, if the woman asks to give it, then it no longer becomes unsolicited.

[JDave]

For all of you who said this would be fine, how would you feel if a sister offered counsel that (no matter how nicely expressed) suggested you'd done something wrong?

I had a sister do just that this last week and I had no problem with it.

I must say that I really liked TruthSeeker's point about asking to give advice. That is such a kind way of starting out and brings everyone to some common point before proceeding.

[wenglund]

I am wondering if the issue ought to be less about giving unsolicited advice, and more about the appropriate way to respond if the advice is thought best not to be taken?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-