142 replies to this topic

[Log]

Brant Gardner, on 01 May 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

Skousen disagrees with me. Since I disagree with him, that is hardly surprising. However, my disagreements are based on evidence and published through Kofford Books. The title is The Gift and Power: Translating the Book of Mormon. I examine all of the evidence I can find to discover what kind of translation the Book of Mormon is. I specifically review the evidence Skousen presents and draw different conclusions from the data.

Royal tells me he's going to be indirectly responding soon in volume 3 of The History of the Text of the Book of Mormon, but in the meantime, if all the data gets interpreted multiple ways, it appears that the difference is the assumptions taken into the analysis.  When the Review gets around to your tome, I shall find out.

[DWhitmer]

Jeff Holt, on 01 May 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Just a side note on D&C 128:20...Just to clarify this verse does not designate the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra NY as the same hill Cumorah where the last battle was fought.  It is poor scholarship to make the New York Hill the same hill as the one in the Book of Mormon because it was named for the hill from that book.

Take a breath, one must take other facts into consideration. For example, B.G. has ignored the Messenger & Advocate account that places the Nephite battle in Palmyra and identifies the hill "Cumorah." That was J.Smith, not "some members."

The point of DC 128:20 is that YES, it was Moroni who made that declaration, and where did he meet J.Smith each year to proclaim its purpose? The hill in Cumorah where the plates were later retreived. Next notice the tense, "of a book TO BE revealed."

Thus, Moroni, declared from "Cumorah," the plates that were about to come forth. It's as clear as glass. (The quotes can be found on the geography site listed below). It was good enough for President and Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, make sure you review is defense and it utter disdain for those trying to change fulfilled BoM prophecy.

[DWhitmer]

Brant Gardner, on 01 May 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

You have missed the point, and the importance of historical accuracy.

As in Messenger & Advocate? Respond to that first, and then attempt to justify your exemption of 2 Nephi 27 for how the text was transmitted. Can't wait.

[Anijen]

DWhitmer, on 01 May 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Take a breath, one must take other facts into consideration.

Taking all relevant facts is appropriate, mixing facts with assumptions is not.

Quote

For example, B.G. has ignored the Messenger & Advocate account that places the Nephite battle in Palmyra and identifies the hill "Cumorah." That was J.Smith, not "some members."

Brother Gardner is an expert on both the Book of Mormon and in anthropology. In my opinion if he ignores anything then it probably is not relevant to the topic. He has asked you to document appropriately, and I have asked you to cite your sources (CFR). Please cite your source to where in the Messenger and Advocate where Joseph Smith claims the Hill Cumoroah in New York is the very same hill where the last battle was fought in the Book of Mormon. If you can not do this please retract your statement, those are board rules.

Quote

The point of DC 128:20 is that YES, it was Moroni who made that declaration

The point is baptism for the dead. It never was about the location of the Hill Cumorah, it wasn't then, it isn't now.

Quote

and where did he meet J.Smith each year to proclaim its purpose?

You are mixing assumptions with facts again. Let me educate you; Fact, Joseph did meet Moroni on the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra.
Assumption; that because he met him there does not make it the same hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

Edited by Jeff Holt, 01 May 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[cinepro]

Meldrum must be really jealous of all those non-LDS scholars that are lining up to support the mesoamerican geography for the Book of Mormon.

[DWhitmer]

cinepro, on 01 May 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Meldrum must be really jealous of all those non-LDS scholars that are lining up to support the mesoamerican geography for the Book of Mormon.

Hear that.

Jeff Holt, on 01 May 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Taking all relevant facts is appropriate, mixing facts with assumptions is not...Brother Gardner is an expert on both the Book of Mormon and in anthropology. In my opinion if he ignores anything then it probably is not relevant to the topic. He has asked you to document appropriately, and I have asked you to cite your sources (CFR). Please cite your source to where in the Messenger and Advocate where Joseph Smith claims the Hill Cumoroah in New York is the very same hill where the last battle was fought in the Book of Mormon. If you can not do this please retract your statement, those are board rules.

Not sure if that is your canned response but B.G. admitted his approach was on an assumption but I have cited both verse and historical documents. Btw, "CFR" does not mean to others work for them. You had the reference, if you don't know how to find it, why are you debating?

[livy111us]

See what I mean?

[livy111us]

cinepro, on 01 May 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Meldrum must be really jealous of all those non-LDS scholars that are lining up to support the mesoamerican geography for the Book of Mormon.

No one said that non-LDS scholars are "lining up" to support a Mesoamerican setting. If you would have been following the thread, you would have realized that the problem lies with videotaping non-LDS scholars in a video they thought was something completely different, only to make them look like they support a heartland theory. Then making the claim that non-LDS scholars support your theory when nothing could be further from the truth.

[Brant Gardner]

cinepro, on 01 May 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Meldrum must be really jealous of all those non-LDS scholars that are lining up to support the mesoamerican geography for the Book of Mormon.

Of course, isn't everybody?

[Log]

livy111us, on 01 May 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

[T]he problem lies with videotaping non-LDS scholars in a video they thought was something completely different, only to make them look like they support a heartland theory.

That wasn't the scholar's problem, if you re-read post #3 in this thread - they object to any claim that there could be a non-native source for AmerIndian culture.  They view the notion that other cultures might have informed the AmerIndian cultures as something like cultural imperialism, which, in this context, is a claim akin to racism.

Edited by Log, 01 May 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[livy111us]

Log, on 01 May 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

That wasn't the scholar's problem, if you re-read post #3 in this thread - they object to any claim that there could be a non-native source for AmerIndian culture.  They view the notion that other cultures might have informed the AmerIndian cultures as something like cultural imperialism, which, in this context, is a claim akin to racism.

I don't see any inaccuracies with my original statement.

[Log]

The heartland theory is irrelevant to the scholars' problem.  So why bring it up?  It only obscures what their real problem is.

[livy111us]

Log, on 01 May 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

The heartland theory is irrelevant to the scholars' problem.  So why bring it up?  It only obscures what their real problem is.

That is the entire premise of the movie, the heartland theory. The Hopewell=Nephites. I have also been personally told numerous times that these non-LDS scholars support the heartland theory.

[Bob Crockett]

I'm disappointed.   Your Messenger and Advocate cite is to a piece by Oliver Cowdery, with which we are familiar.

[DWhitmer]

Bob Crockett, on 01 May 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

I'm disappointed.   Your Messenger and Advocate cite is to a piece by Oliver Cowdery, with which we are familiar.

Why disappointed?

[Bob Crockett]

DWhitmer, on 01 May 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Why disappointed?

Your post said Joseph Smith identified the hill as such, but this is an Oliver Cowdery piece.   This crowd won't accept this source.

[DWhitmer]

Bob Crockett, on 01 May 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Your post said Joseph Smith identified the hill as such, but this is an Oliver Cowdery piece.   This crowd won't accept this source.

J.Smith was Oliver's source.

[Bob Crockett]

I agree with you, but this particular source has been vetted by the MesoAmerican crowd into irrelevancy.

[DWhitmer]

Bob Crockett, on 01 May 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I agree with you, but this particular source has been vetted by the MesoAmerican crowd into irrelevancy.

"Vetted" I have not seen, ignore, of course. Here it is for others:

"...we have thought that a full history of the rise of the church of the Latter Day Saints, and the most interesting parts of its progress, to the present time, would be worthy the perusal of the Saints.-If circumstances admit, an article on this subject will appear in each subsequent No. of the Messenger and Advocate, until the time when the church was driven from Jackson Co. Mo. by a lawless banditti; & such other remarks as may be thought appropriate and interesting.

That our narrative may be correct, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us." (LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834 p. 12)

You're right, they could care less how many G.A.'s have confirmed that the final battle was in Palmyra, or that J.Smith did identify the hill, after both Moroni and another Nephite told Whitmer, Cowdery, and Smith. They will obfuscate to save face.

You are being rude.  If you make a controversial claim on this board and are asked to document it you must do it if you want to stay in the thread.

Edited by Minos, 02 May 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[rodheadlee]

The final battle may have been in Palmyra. But if Zerahemla and all the Nephite cities were in upstate NY why is there no mention of bitter cold winters?, short growing seasons? having battles in snow?

Edited by rodheadlee, 02 May 2012 - 07:32 AM.