Oh brother. I didn't really expect the anti-Mormon local brotherhood chapter 666 to be cheering on this thread. I should not be surprised. Ignore is better than a response to idiocy however.
For the legitimate comment.question, the family reported they found some disturbing things at the hands of their clergy before moving on and cutting off contact.
That is what I thought. They now also have a new church and new friends. I still say that they didn't have a testimony...sad...but I think that the members will survive.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
Oh brother. I didn't really expect the anti-Mormon local brotherhood chapter 666 to be cheering on this thread. I should not be surprised. Ignore is better than a response to idiocy however.
For the legitimate comment.question, the family reported they found some disturbing things at the hands of their clergy before moving on and cutting off contact.
Ok, so there was some contact with the saints before they left. Just wonderin.
......."either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!"- Colonel Jessup, "A FEW GOOD MEN"
But more seriously, this is pretty much what happens when people are clued in on the things the Church should have told people in the beginning. Sorry, but it is the truth. I've seen it happen plenty of times and the Church and its membership know how important it is to keep new members close to their chest. It is why it is important for the Church to involve so much of a members life with Church activities throughout each week. If they're spending all their time with fellow believers, there is little chance for them to get a critical perspective of Mormonism.
I agree with you to a point. I agree that the Church should address more openly some of the historical issues which cause members to stumble when learning about them. Issues like polygamy, Joseph's peep stone, the multiple versions of the first vision, the revisions of the Book of Mormon, etc. These issues caused me to stumble big-time. It was a real struggle to maintain belief in the Church...and this is coming from someone who served in a Bishopric and was VERY active. It is called the "dark night of the soul" and that is exactly what it feels like. It would be nice to get the Church's perspective on these issues as a counter-balance to what our critics say. I don't think increasing activities is going to solve it. This can happen to anyone with access to Google. All it takes is innocently searching a term while preparing for a Sunday School lesson and getting onto a website which opens Pandora's box. I would like to see the Church address these things.
However, I understand the sensitivity. You don't want to expose otherwise faithful members to these things unnecessarily and cause them to stumble. Likewise, our mission is to bring people to Christ. To help them make sacred covenants. To enrich their lives by teaching them the principles of the Gospel. To bind families together and bring joy into their lives. Getting into the historical controversies does not enrich these areas and, in fact, may even offend the Spirit.
"There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same" - Frodo Baggins
According to Okrahomer, that's impossible. All the Mormons in the United States are self-avowed Mormons.
oh....never mind. I haven't the energy to match the acid...
“I ate so much okra, I slid out of bed.” --Old Southern adage
"Old Homer Ogletree’s so high, On okra he keeps lots laid by. He keeps it in a safe he locks up, He eats so much, can’t keep his socks up. Which goes to show it’s no misnomer When people call him Okra Homer. Okra! " --Roy Blount, Jr.
Sure it is. He said, "Not until they remove their names from the record. Until then, we are stuck with trying to visit them on a regular basis. Not that I shirk from that duty."
Plain English, Pahoran. Now... this may not be what he meant, but this is what he said.
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This is the second time in two days where I have seen you read something into someone's post that simply was not there.
Snore...
This is the second time in two days that you've denied that plain english says what it says. Now again... this may have been mistated.... fine... but you you have no rational basis for accusing me of reading things into other people's posts. At least... not with regard to the two posts in question.
But there's the rub, right? Rationality. You should try it sometime. Seriously. It will make you wise. It's very desirable and delicious to the taste.
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In both cases, the effect of the misreading was to make the target look bad,
Nonsense. I didn't misread the remark at all. If anything, BCspace misspoke.
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and the targets were posters with whom you are on less than friendly terms. Might some kind of pattern be emerging here?
Regards,
Pahoran
Preach on, Pahoran. Preach on!!
The irony, the hypocrisy! Too funny...
For the record... I wouldn't say I am on "less than friendly terms" with BCspace. He and I have had our disagreements over the years, but I kind of like the guy. As for such patters seen in my exchanges with you, on the other hand... you might be on to something.
It happened again. Some anti-Mormon got to a newly baptized family in our ward. They were active and their son was in my Scout troop. Suddenly they won't allow their children contact with Mormons at all.
Clever strategy that: "Leave and don't contact anyone from the LDS church again." What are they afraid of we might strain some of the poison from the well?
I'm always very sad to hear things like this. I hope they return someday.
"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win." —Mahatma Ghandi
Does conversion come before or after the "strong testimony" is obtained? And when you say conversion and testimony, what do you mean? Definitions for these categories might be useful.
Sure it is. He said, "Not until they remove their names from the record. Until then, we are stuck with trying to visit them on a regular basis. Not that I shirk from that duty."
Plain English, Pahoran. Now... this may not be what he meant, but this is what he said.
Thank you for admitting that you know perfectly well that he did not mean what you attributed to him; meaning that your previous interpretation, to wit, "But according to BCspace's remark, it wouldn't matter to him," was not true.
Because he never said "it wouldn't matter to him."
Note to BCSpace: you might think you are carrying on a casual conversation, but you're not. Every word you write will be parsed with uber-Pharisaical precision. Any detail you leave out of any sentence, however brief, will be taken as license to wilfully misrepresent you.
There, will that do?
Mike Reed, on 26 April 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:
This is the second time in two days that you've denied that plain english says what it says.
It is unfortunate that you have no good faith basis on which to claim to believe what you assert.
Regards,
Pahoran
(1) Honest. (2) Well-informed. (3) Denying that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a Christian institution without interruption from the beginning of its history.
A critic may choose any two of the above three. Choose wisely.
Does conversion come before or after the "strong testimony" is obtained? And when you say conversion and testimony, what do you mean? Definitions for these categories might be useful.
"Conversion" is not a term one readily finds in Mormon circles, and so I'll fall back on my Evangelical background to try and define it for you:
"Conversion" is the point where one foresakes the natural man, takes up one's cross, and dedicates his life to the service of his God.
A "testimony" is a personal knowledge and/or assurance that:
1) Christ lives, after having offered himself as a sacrifice to atone for our sins,
2) that the Lord has chosen to restore the knowledge and authority of the Gospel in this dispensation
3) the power and authority ("the keys") of the Priesthood now reside in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
When a Mormon offers his "testimony"- he is affirming his (or her) personal conviction that God lives, that he loves us, and that he chose to restore his Church through a fourteen-year-old boy from New York- and that that restored organization continues to function to this day.
As to which comes first, the testimony or the conversion, one might just as readily ask, "At what point does a Christian receive Christ's image in their countenance"?
At what point does one convert from being a student of Christ to a disciple of Christ?
At what point do we transition from mere "followers of Christ" to "sons (or daughters) of Christ"?
The answer is both simple and exceedingly complex: "It depends upon the individual."
For some, it will be a single instance on the road to Damascus. For others, it will be a lifetime of service in the slums and ghettoes of Calcutta.
For one, it might be a single night reading the Book of Mormon, for others it might be a long journey from an empty grove of trees to a hot jail cell surrounded by a blood-thirsty mob.
Each of us has our own road to walk from "the natural man" to the "good and faithful servant of the Lord."
As I stated in the other thread, I have met disciples of Christ who were not members of the Church. I have likewise encountered Sons of Perdition who insist that they were (or still are) Bishops and Stake Presidents.
I (as with all the other faithful) am a Mormon not because I took the missionary discussions, or because I married a Mormon girl, or because my exhaustive study of history proved that Joseph Smith walked on water and shot sunbeams from his finger tips.
I am a Mormons because the Holy Ghost touched my heart and mind* and testified the truthfulness of the Gospel and of the Restoration. I am a Mormon because I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the most complete understanding of the doctrines and essentials necessary to both return me to My Heavenly Father and to do so in a fashion that allows me the greatest spiritual growth.
The Lord has commanded each of us to develop our talents and to be "profitable servants"- not in monetary terms, but as a return on his investment in each of us. For myself and millions like me- the doctrines and teachings of the LDS church are the most effective means of fulfilling those commandments.
*(Yes, Xander. In this regard- and this regard only- I admit to being a little touched in the head)
It happened again. Some anti-Mormon got to a newly baptized family in our ward. They were active and their son was in my Scout troop. Suddenly they won't allow their children contact with Mormons at all.
Clever strategy that: "Leave and don't contact anyone from the LDS church again." What are they afraid of we might strain some of the poison from the well?
We had this happen twice in the last three years.
"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” -- Martin Luther "Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" -- Martin Luther
Can I just add my disdain for those cynics who decided to pile on this thread for the purposes of pushing their own favorite flavor of apostasy.
I suppose I should have chosen to commiserate the loss of a brother, sister and their children to lies of our enemies in the social hall with other grownups.
Please ask me what I believe before telling me what I believe. Hint- start here: http://lds.org/scriptures/
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This topic is locked
KevinG, on 26 April 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:
