167 replies to this topic

[wenglund]

It has been awhile since there has been active discussion here about the Book of Abraham. I suspect this is because, among other things, the way in which the topic is often discussed here can be quite off-putting to many--in part, I suspect, because of too frequent repelling acrimony and the somewhat esoteric academic approaches employed.

For a change, I would like to have a discussion on this topic that has greater and more wide-spread appeal and mutually beneficial results.

So, while participants are free to discuss here whatever they wish about the Book of Abraham, I desire that the focus be less on academics and more on the spiritual.

What I do not wish to see in this thread are insults, ax grinding, ridicule, dismissals, rancor, grandstanding, or anything of the sort, and I fully intend to resist my own natural inclinations and set a good example.

Let's demonstrate that we can we can actually have a lengthy and  productive discussion on the this topic.

To get things started, let me ask what you think is the intent of the Book of Abraham, and what value may be derived therefrom?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Cobalt-70]

wenglund, on 25 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

To get things started, let me ask what you think is the intent of the Book of Abraham, and what value may be derived therefrom?

Although I don't think the Book of Abraham is actually a translation of the papyri he received from Chandler, I think: (1) that Smith sincerely believed it was a translation (in other words, it was not a fraud), and (2) that Smith believed that the papyri contained esoteric secrets that might shed light on the wisdom of the ancients. I see the Book of Abraham as a continuation of Smith's translation of the bible--effectively as a "lost book" that one might imagine to have been part of the bible but wasn't. Thus, I think the work has the same value as the Joseph Smith translation--as an inspired amplification and variation on biblical themes, with a particularly esoteric bent. From a spiritual perspective, the fact that it is not a real translation of the Chandler papyri is not really important.

Edited by Cobalt-70, 25 April 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[calmoriah]

The opening theme at least would appear to me to be the Priesthood, establishing its importance and authority and its operation as a link between God and Man.

[cinepro]

This article has some interesting insights that we don't often discuss:

The Book of Abraham: A Most Remarkable Book

This is one of my favorites:

Quote

President Joseph Fielding Smith stated that in this verse the Lord “revealed to Abraham that Adam was subject to Kolob’s time before his transgression.” ¹⁹ According to President Brigham Young, Abraham 5:13 [Abr. 5:13] also means that before the Fall of Adam, the earth was near the very throne of God. But when the Fall occurred, the earth literally fell or moved from the physical presence of God to its present position in our solar system. When all the effects of the Fall of Adam are finally overcome, the earth will literally move back into the presence of God. Here are President Young’s words:

“When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. … But when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system. … This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father, and it will dwell there, and these intelligent beings that I am looking at, if they live worthy of it, will dwell upon this earth.” ²⁰

The power by which the effects of Adam’s Fall are overcome for all created things, including the earth, is the Atonement of Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:40–43; Moses 7:48–62).

[wenglund]

I appreciate the responses so far.

To me, the general purpose of the Book of Abraham, as with all scripture, is to bring us to Christ. This is the case whether one believes, as I do, that the Book of Abraham is a revelatory translation of ancient Records, or not.

More specifically, as I see the Book of Abraham, its value and design is to add further knowledge and layers of meaning to various aspects of the plan of salvation as may be found in other books of scripture, most particularly the pre-mortality of mankind and the eternal nature of our spirits and the importance of familial lineage and the order and priesthood related thereto. This becomes apparent as one compares and contrasts what is said in the Book of Abraham with what is said in the Bible and other scripture.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[boblloyd91]

I hope that I don't derail anything by throwing the Book of Moses into the discussion, but I really think that some of the most touching scriptures I have ever read was when Enoch sees God weeping.

[Senator]

boblloyd91, on 25 April 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

I hope that I don't derail anything by throwing the Book of Moses into the discussion, but I really think that some of the most touching scriptures I have ever read was when Enoch sees God weeping.

Amen!!
The Book of Moses is my most favorite of all scriptural books.

[Brian 2.0]

Was the BOA the first instance during the Restoration of the pre-mortal life, specifically that OUR spirits existed before we were born?  Was this a brand new concept for the members?

I grew up with it obviously, and I thought that it was a shared concept throughout all Christianity.  It was only later that I realized that the concept of a Pre-Earth was fairly unique to Mormon doctrine.

I know they generally knew about a War in Heaven and that Jesus and Lucifer offered different plans.  But was this the first time people found out that THEY were there during that War in Heaven, and had made choices on who to follow, resulting in their keeping of their 1st Estate?

[theplains]

I have questions about the first 3 verses:

"In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain
another place of residence".

Was it really Abraham who was looking for a new place to live or was it God who told him that he would lead him to
a new land?

"And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, ...
and to be a father of many nations, ... I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to
the fathers.  It was conferred upon me from the fathers; ... down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn,
or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me"..

Did Abraham want to be a father of many nations before God told him about His covenant?

This verse seems to make the priesthood directly related to one's lineage.  Which lineage?  And what is the right of
the firstborn?

Thanks,
Jim

[Cobalt-70]

cinepro, on 25 April 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

This article has some interesting insights that we don't often discuss:

The Book of Abraham: A Most Remarkable Book

This is one of my favorites:

Wow. How was it possible that the editors of the Ensign could allow Brigham Young's "wandering earth" theory to feature in an article dated only 15 years ago?

[Cobalt-70]

theplains, on 25 April 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

"And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, ...
and to be a father of many nations, ... I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to
the fathers.  It was conferred upon me from the fathers; ... down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn,
or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me"..
...
This verse seems to make the priesthood directly related to one's lineage.  Which lineage?  And what is the right of
the firstborn?

This only refers to what Joseph Smith called the "Patriarchal Priesthood." It is a third order of priesthood, separate from Aaronic and Melchizedek, which is passed down from father to (usually) firstborn son. Smith "restored" this priesthood by introducing the office of Presiding Patriarch, an office which will be discontinued within the LDS Church as soon as Eldred G. Smith (now 105 years old) dies.

[altersteve]

Cobalt-70, on 25 April 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

This only refers to what Joseph Smith called the "Patriarchal Priesthood." It is a third order of priesthood, separate from Aaronic and Melchizedek, which is passed down from father to (usually) firstborn son. Smith "restored" this priesthood by introducing the office of Presiding Patriarch, an office which will be discontinued within the LDS Church as soon as Eldred G. Smith (now 105 years old) dies.

The Patriarchal Priesthood is not separate from the Aaronic and Melchizedek. As Boyd K. Packer has explained, it is part of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

[Brian 2.0]

theplains, on 25 April 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

I have questions about the first 3 verses:

"In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain
another place of residence".

Was it really Abraham who was looking for a new place to live or was it God who told him that he would lead him to
a new land?

I was always told that this was kind of a funny massive understatement, because Abraham had been put on an altar and almost killed for the false Gods, and he just simply says that he "saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence."

[theplains]

Cobalt-70, on 25 April 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

This only refers to what Joseph Smith called the "Patriarchal Priesthood." Smith "restored" this priesthood by introducing the office of Presiding Patriarch, an office which will be discontinued within the LDS Church as soon as Eldred G. Smith (now 105 years old) dies.

Do you have a reference for the discontinuation part?

Thanks,
Jim

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I disagree with Elder Packer that the Priesthood is intrinsically patriarchal. As far as I can understand it, the Priesthood is ultimately cosmological, with no gender requirements. As the JST version of Hebrews 7:3 states, the Priesthood is "without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life." Only specific offices within it have traditionally been based on gender, as in Hyrum Smith's case, and those that followed. I'll have no nostalgia whatsoever once the office is forgotten, but Stapley's got a nice little writeup on Eldred Smith's son's book about the office.

As far as the Book of Abraham goes, it's one of my favorites. The idea of premortal existence and the Divine Council of the Gods (plural elohim, "male and female") is all-important.

[wenglund]

Brian 2.0, on 25 April 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

I was always told that this was kind of a funny massive understatement, because Abraham had been put on an altar and almost killed for the false Gods, and he just simply says that he "saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence."

For a time I kind of thought the same thing, that is until I realized that I was reading and interpreting this eastern book with my western-oriented mind. Once I started considering the seemingly chiastic way in which Abraham told his story, it began to make more sense.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

altersteve, on 25 April 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

The Patriarchal Priesthood is not separate from the Aaronic and Melchizedek. As Boyd K. Packer has explained, it is part of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

It is also another name for the new and everlasting covenant of marriage--which is interesting given the focus on lineage in the Book of Abraham.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Cobalt-70]

altersteve, on 25 April 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

The Patriarchal Priesthood is not separate from the Aaronic and Melchizedek. As Boyd K. Packer has explained, it is part of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

In the afterlife, Joseph Smith and Packer can have their little argument. But here's what Joseph Smith said in 1843:

"There are three grand orders of priesthood referred to here.

1st. The King of Shiloam (Salem [i.e., Melchizedek]) had power and authority over that of Abraham, holding the key and the power of endless life.... The Melchizedek Priesthood holds the right from the eternal God, and not by descent from father and mother; and that priesthood is as eternal as God Himself, having neither beginning of days nor end of life.

The 2nd Priesthood is Patriarchal authority. Go to and finish the temple, and God will fill it with power, and you will then receive more knowledge concerning this priesthood.

The 3rd is what is called the Levitical Priesthood, consisting of priests to administer in outward ordinances, made without an oath; but the Priesthood of Melchizedek is by an oath and covenant.

The Holy Ghost is God's messenger to administer in all those priesthoods."

(History of the Church 5:554-5)

Edited by Cobalt-70, 25 April 2012 - 04:30 PM.

[cinepro]

Cobalt-70, on 25 April 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Wow. How was it possible that the editors of the Ensign could allow Brigham Young's "wandering earth" theory to feature in an article dated only 15 years ago?

I don't know.

Thankfully, it's not "official doctrine", despite being in the scriptures, taught by a latter day prophet, and recently published by the Church in a correlated magazine.

Edited by cinepro, 25 April 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[wenglund]

JeremyOrbe-Smith, on 25 April 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

I disagree with Elder Packer that the Priesthood is intrinsically patriarchal. As far as I can understand it, the Priesthood is ultimately cosmological, with no gender requirements. As the JST version of Hebrews 7:3 states, the Priesthood is "without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life." Only specific offices within it have traditionally been based on gender, as in Hyrum Smith's case, and those that followed. I'll have no nostalgia whatsoever once the office is forgotten, but Stapley's got a nice little writeup on Eldred Smith's son's book about the office.

As I understand things, there is a difference between the Melchezidek priesthood and the order that priesthood has and will at times take. The former is without father or mother (i.e. it is eternal), whereas the latter has changed over time, from patriarchal to ecclesiastical to patriarchal.

There is also a difference between the order and a given office within the priesthood.

Quote

As far as the Book of Abraham goes, it's one of my favorites. The idea of premortal existence and the Divine Council of the Gods (plural elohim, "male and female") is all-important.

Agreed.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-