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The Book Of Abraham--A Spiritual Perspective


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#61 theplains

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:49 PM

Had they been reading their Bibles, perhaps "most Christians" should have seen it correctly - Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? (Heb 12:9)

Considering the way you interpret Hebrews 12:9, let's look at another passage:

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness,
neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).

What does Father of lights mean?

Thanks,
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#62 mfbukowski

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:34 AM

Considering the way you interpret Hebrews 12:9, let's look at another passage:

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness,
neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).

What does Father of lights mean?

Thanks,
Jim

Those who have the light of Christ.

Conscience is a manifestation of the Light of Christ, enabling us to judge good from evil. The prophet Mormon taught: “The Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. . . . And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged” (Moroni 7:16, 18).

http://www.lds.org/study/topics/light-of-christ?lang=eng
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#63 LDSToronto

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 04:33 AM

Wait a minute - The Earth was built somewhere else in the universe and shipped to it's current orbit? Does anyone else think this sounds like Magrathea, from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
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#64 wenglund

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:16 AM

Sorry- didn't see this. My above question clearly has nothing to do with the BOA, so I withdraw it. Perhaps if Jeremy could answer it in a way which brings us back to the BOA it would be appropriate, with Wade's approval.


On a related Book of Abraham matter, which touches somewhat on the so-called gender issues, among several others, is the general precept of equality. I dare say that in the last century or so, if not longer, this notion has gained increasing importance around the world, and for some people it seems to be of paramount importance.

I am sure there are a lot of viable reasons to explain why this precept has become so prominent and elevated in our collective mind, though I don't personally wish to discuss them here.

What is pertinent to me and this thread, however, is that with as much importance as has been given to the precept of equality, what is to be made of the passage in the Book of Abraham which says: "If atwo things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them...These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all"? (Abr. 3:16,19)

The entire chapter seems to speak of inequality in governing and also ordinal rankings using the stars and planets as a metaphor.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund, 27 April 2012 - 08:18 AM.

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#65 mfbukowski

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:26 AM

The entire chapter seems to speak of inequality in governing and also ordinal rankings using the stars and planets as a metaphor.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I totally agree; there are and will be those who qualify for different kingdoms, obviously. As I see it "equality" of the sexes is one question and the other is gender roles.

It is no illusion that women are different than men, and I think that relates to the whole notion of the dialectical nature of reality, unity of opposites, opposition in all things, yin and yang, etc. I have no problem with gender roles and think they are God given and meant to be complimentary and could argue the point endlessly but obviously won't. ;) at least not here.

But I agree with you about the ranking of the planets- and of course we know well the analogy of the glory of the sun, moon, and stars with unequal ranking.
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#66 calmoriah

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:42 AM

I have no problem with gender roles and think they are God given and meant to be complimentary and could argue the point endlessly but obviously won't. ;) at least not here.

It will be very interesting to me to find out what gender roles are a result of eternal gender differences and what were 'assigned' us (God given) in order to better advance the purpose of God (to bring joy).
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#67 wenglund

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:47 AM

I totally agree; there are and will be those who qualify for different kingdoms, obviously. As I see it "equality" of the sexes is one question and the other is gender roles.

It is no illusion that women are different than men, and I think that relates to the whole notion of the dialectical nature of reality, unity of opposites, opposition in all things, yin and yang, etc. I have no problem with gender roles and think they are God given and meant to be complimentary and could argue the point endlessly but obviously won't. ;) at least not here.

But I agree with you about the ranking of the planets- and of course we know well the analogy of the glory of the sun, moon, and stars with unequal ranking.


For that matter, the precept of progression, which is essential to the gospel, in some respects flies in the face of equality. It is intended that what we may have become today, and may yet become tomorrow, ought not be equal to, but rather much better in many ways, to what we were yesterday. :good:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}


#68 wenglund

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:58 AM

Is the heart equal to the mind? To me, in some respects the heart is superior to the mind, and in other respects the mind is superior to the heart, and each are remarkably different (not equal) in shape and function from each other. Both are vital, but not equal.

Would it make sense for the heart to take on the role of the mind, or vice versa? To me, each are far better suited for their respective natural, God-given roles.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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#69 calmoriah

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:05 PM

One can live without emotion, but can one live without thought (in the sense of actually functioning).

However, what gives value to any experience is the emotional or affective content so who would really want to live without emotion?

(The Vulcan choice to promote logic over emotion was an emotional choice......;))

Edited by calmoriah, 27 April 2012 - 12:06 PM.

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When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
UMW forever!

#70 wenglund

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:18 PM

One can live without emotion, but can one live without thought (in the sense of actually functioning).

However, what gives value to any experience is the emotional or affective content so who would really want to live without emotion?

(The Vulcan choice to promote logic over emotion was an emotional choice...... ;))


I was thinking of the heart in both the literal and figurative sense of the word, but even still your point is well taken.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}


#71 Cobalt-70

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 01:28 PM

On a related Book of Abraham matter, which touches somewhat on the so-called gender issues, among several others, is the general precept of equality. I dare say that in the last century or so, if not longer, this notion has gained increasing importance around the world, and for some people it seems to be of paramount importance.

I am sure there are a lot of viable reasons to explain why this precept has become so prominent and elevated in our collective mind, though I don't personally wish to discuss them here.

What is pertinent to me and this thread, however, is that with as much importance as has been given to the precept of equality, what is to be made of the passage in the Book of Abraham which says: "If atwo things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them...These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all"? (Abr. 3:16,19)

The entire chapter seems to speak of inequality in governing and also ordinal rankings using the stars and planets as a metaphor.

I think quite the opposite. The chapter puts God and humanity on the same scale, which makes them equal. There are no glass ceilings for humanity as there are in other Christian faiths. God wants us to be equal to himself.

On your broader point, "equality" is not just some newfangled secular idea. Acts 10:34: "God is no respector of persons." Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." 2 Cor. 8:14: "At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality." Mosiah 27:3: "And there was a strict command throughout all the churches that there should be no persecutions among them, that there should be an equality among all men." 4 Nephi 1:3: "And they had all things in common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift." D&C 78:6: "For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things."
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#72 JeremyOrbe-Smith

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:41 PM

[Edit: Well, it appears Cobalt beat me to the punch while I was typing.]

In the last century or so, if not longer, this notion [of 'the general precept of equality'] has gained increasing importance around the world, and for some people it seems to be of paramount importance.


As this very thread shows, equity is not a concern which has gained particularly great importance, prominence, or elevation in our collective mind in "modern" times at all.

Dictionary.com says that equity is "the quality of being fair or impartial; fairness; impartiality: the equity of Solomon. Synonyms: disinterest, equitableness, impartiality, fair-mindedness, fairness, justness, evenhandedness, objectivity; justice, probity. Antonyms: bias, discrimination, inequity, injustice, partiality, partisanship, prejudice, unfairness, unreasonableness; injustice."

Since it specifically names Solomon, let's start with him: King Solomon spoke his Proverbs so that his hearers would come to know Lady Wisdom and honor their Father and Mother by keeping their instruction and perceiving the words of understanding: "To receive the Instruction of Wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity." (Proverbs 1:3) "Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path." (Proverbs 2:9)

("Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets!" Proverbs 1:20)

As Ecclesiastes 2:21 says, "for there is a man whose labour is in Wisdom, and in knowledge, and in equity; yet to a man that hath not laboured therein shall he leave it for his portion. This also is vanity and a great evil."

In Ezekiel 18, the Lord asks "O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."

Isaiah seems pretty concerned with equality, too; "with righteousness shall [Yahweh] judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth." (11:4 -- and also 2 Nephi 21:4 and 30:9)

"Our transgressions are multiplied before thee [God], and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; in transgressing and lying against Yahweh, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter." (Isaiah 59:12)

Malachi 2:6 says that "the law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity."

Psalms 98:8 says "let the hills be joyful together before Yahweh; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity." And Psalms 99:4 continues to say that "the king’s strength also loveth judgment; thou dost establish equity, thou executest judgment and righteousness in Jacob."

"And not many days hence the Son of God shall come in his glory; and his glory shall be the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, equity, and truth, full of patience, mercy, and long-suffering, quick to hear the cries of his people and to answer their prayers." (Alma 9:26)

"Yea, well doth he cry, by the voice of his angels that: I will come down among my people, with equity and justice in my hands." (Alma 10:21)

"And they began again to prosper and to wax great; and the twenty and sixth and seventh years passed away, and there was great order in the land; and they had formed their laws according to equity and justice." (3 Nephi 6:4)

"Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:)

"Neither can [people of the next world] die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:36)

As members of the Church, we've also Covenanted to uphold certain Doctrines; for instance, we are to "present the case, after the evidence is examined, in its true light before the council; and every man is to speak according to equity and justice." (D&C 102:16)

"In your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld." (D&C 70:14) "For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things." (D&C 78:6)

And as far as our public civic life is concerned: "We believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers and magistrates to enforce the laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will of the sovereign." (D&C 134:3)

So yes, correct, it's true that for some people equality seems to be of paramount importance. "Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity." (Micah 3:9)

"These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day." (Matthew 20:12)

"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18) As if that wasn't enough, He also asked Mary to "go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." For "Wisdom is justified of all her children." (Luke 7:35)

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men." (Philippians 2:6)

"The saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him." (D&C 88:107) "They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; and he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion." (D&C 76:94)

This is where the Radical Freedom and Equality of the Book of Abraham comes in.

The quote above from Abraham 3 excises with a tragic ellipsis the most vital part of that lesson, which comes in at verse 18: "If there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal."

Utterly mindblowing. Our mere smarts are not the core part of us. The Gospel of Intelligences teaches that despite superficial gender-based biological differences, superficial differences in wisdom, differences in all worldly things, that the fundamental spark of Intelligence which each individual fundamentally is is eternal and self-existing and therefore no one, not a single God, can claim that enforced inequities are just.

God is the most intelligent spark of Intelligence, and yet He doesn't use that to enforce "roles"; instead, He wants to bring us all up to inherit all He has. He was once a man like us, growing from one small degree to another after worlds came rolling into existence, and He uses His greater wisdom to help others evolve into the best versions of themselves that they can be.

"Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen." (Alma 13:9)

As humankind's advocate, Christ's work is to save our world by teaching us to become as Good as He and the Father and the Mother and everyone else in the Divine Council have already done. Then the Kingdom in Heaven and the Kingdom on Earth can blend together and unite and we can take part fully in the At-One-Ment of all Uncreated Intelligences because we will become one-in-heart by upholding the Plan of Salvation, which mission is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all Uncreated Intelligences in glorified tabernacles, shining bodily temples. God doesn't want to enforce inequities, He wants to abolish them.

As Bushman writes, "the universe is a school for these free, self-existing intelligences. [Joseph Smith taught that] God, finding 'himself in the midst of spirit and glory because he was greater[,] saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself.' God nurtures the intelligences, giving them laws to help them progress to greater capacity. 'God has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences that thay may be exhalted with himself.' He is their teacher, not their maker. Each one is free to choose."

This is not the strict enforcement of some gender-based "role" -- the only "role" humans have is to be saviors of humanity, lest we be as salt that has lost its savor and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden underfoot. When we accept the Gospel, the Plan of Salvation, we commit to being the Saviors of Humanity in whatever way we can -- ie, we all take upon ourselves the name of Christ -- "Anointed One" -- "that every [person] might speak in the name of God the Lord ["Anointed One"], even the Savior of the world." (D&C 1:20)

There are quite enough beautiful biological differences between people to get all the beautiful dialectical symbolism of light and dark, yin and yang, right and left, alchemical marriages, opposition in all things, etc., without inventing rigid "roles" for each other that must be adhered to lest we be thought unnatural.

The scriptures we have upheld by common consent do not list a single instance of the word "role". The word simply does not appear, and any "God-given" roles must therefore be inferred, and usually inaccurately. Certainly there are a lot of "roles" one could infer for men from Leviticus that we would be horrified to uphold today. There is no instance of a God-given "woman's place" or a "man's place". Zip. I know men who are "nurturing" and women who are "aggressive." I've never known a single stereotype of gender to be accurate across the board.

The principle of eternal progression means that inequities will be overcome - for instance, we have progressed since the days of Exodus from bartering women like cattle to occasionally treating each other as, y'know, vaguely equal, every now and then, when we're feeling generous. Witness the fact that Utah was among the first to grant women suffrage. It'd be nice if our communal progression wasn't so vehemently opposed from some quarters.

Edited by JeremyOrbe-Smith, 27 April 2012 - 04:38 PM.

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#73 wenglund

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:44 PM

I think quite the opposite. The chapter puts God and humanity on the same scale, which makes them equal.


Both a 300 lb man and a 100 lb man may be weighed by the same scale. Using the same scale doesn't make them equal, certainly not in terms of weight. But, I am familiar with the way in which you seem to interpret statements that clearly say up, to mean down, metaphorically speaking. How you can read equality into a passage filled with expression of divergent governance, divergent times and manor of reckoning, greater and lessor, above and below, etc. is a mystery to me. But, as always, to each their own.

There are no glass ceilings for humanity as there are in other Christian faiths. God wants us to be equal to himself.


As far as I can recall, God doesn't say he wishes for us to become equal to him. Instead, he says he wishes for us to become one with him. Two very different, non-equal, precepts in my estimation.

On your broader point, "equality" is not just some newfangled secular idea. Acts 10:34: "God is no respector of persons." Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." 2 Cor. 8:14: "At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality." Mosiah 27:3: "And there was a strict command throughout all the churches that there should be no persecutions among them, that there should be an equality among all men." 4 Nephi 1:3: "And they had all things in common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift." D&C 78:6: "For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things."


While some of the passages you quoted don't actually speak to equality (certainly not in the way some understand the term today), one cannot reasonably interpret my comments as suggesting that the precept of equality had no place in the world or in the scriptures more than a century ago. I was very careful to state things in such a way as to avoid that mistaken perception. Instead, the careful reader will see that I spoke to the marked increase in importance of the precept over the last century.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}


#74 JeremyOrbe-Smith

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:58 PM

As far as I can recall, God doesn't say he wishes for us to become equal to him. Instead, he says he wishes for us to become one with him. Two very different, non-equal, precepts in my estimation.


Nope. As I noted above: "The saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him." (D&C 88:107) "They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; and he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion." (D&C 76:94)
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#75 mfbukowski

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:06 PM

Is the heart equal to the mind? To me, in some respects the heart is superior to the mind, and in other respects the mind is superior to the heart, and each are remarkably different (not equal) in shape and function from each other. Both are vital, but not equal.

Would it make sense for the heart to take on the role of the mind, or vice versa? To me, each are far better suited for their respective natural, God-given roles.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Exactly, and I would extend this to areas of discourse as well. Religion and science, in my opinion, have little to do with each other and often end up "speaking past" each other. They each have different goals and objectives and serve different purposes.
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My Blog: Theomorphic Man http://theomorphicman.blogspot.com/

#76 mfbukowski

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:13 PM

One can live without emotion, but can one live without thought (in the sense of actually functioning).

However, what gives value to any experience is the emotional or affective content so who would really want to live without emotion?

(The Vulcan choice to promote logic over emotion was an emotional choice...... ;))

Yes, that first part represents an interesting but perhaps false dichotomy. I think thought and emotion are actually inseparable. I think that one could not survive without emotion- it is hard to evaluate logically about whether or not life is worth living while one is running, rather emotionally from a bear attack, screaming for one's life!

I suspect that everyone ultimately has an emotional "axe to grind" which is probably what actually generates most "intellectual" agendas.

Edited by mfbukowski, 27 April 2012 - 03:15 PM.

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"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, ... creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah

My Blog: Theomorphic Man http://theomorphicman.blogspot.com/

#77 Cobalt-70

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 04:32 PM


Both a 300 lb man and a 100 lb man may be weighed by the same scale. Using the same scale doesn't make them equal, certainly not in terms of weight. But, I am familiar with the way in which you seem to interpret statements that clearly say up, to mean down, metaphorically speaking. How you can read equality into a passage filled with expression of divergent governance, divergent times and manor of reckoning, greater and lessor, above and below, etc. is a mystery to me. But, as always, to each their own.

Not "scale" in the sense of weighing. "Scale" in the sense of a graduated line for measurement--think in terms of an axis or tape measure.

I don't think you are reading Abraham 3 in its Christian context, and are not appreciating how radical it was. The key to this chapter is the word "notwithstanding" in verse 18.

It says that heaven and earth are of the same species, as are God and humanity. It's an allegory. It notes that some planets (like the moon) are higher and slower than others (like the earth), and that just because the moon is higher and slower than the earth doesn't mean that there isn't a planet (the sun) still higher and slower. Likewise--and this is the moral of the story--"notwithstanding" that God may be more intelligent than we are, he and we are both spirits, and are both eternal and were coeternal in the beginning. What's more, just because someone (including God) is more intelligent than we are, doesn't mean that there is not yet another more intelligent than he. So we are all ultimately equal--just standing in different places. The chapter makes a point to say that God spoke with Abraham "face to face," meaning on equal terms.

So that fundamental equality is what drove God, despite his vastly superior intelligence, to come and stand among his less-intelligent spirit friends and organize them according to his plan. The great and noble ones, like Abraham, were called to rule over the less great and less noble, just as God rules over the heavens and the earth. But by the time Abraham had reached this part of his vision, he had already been taught that despite his nobility, Abraham, like God, was fundamentally equal to the other spirits of the universe, all of whom are eternal.

As far as I can recall, God doesn't say he wishes for us to become equal to him. Instead, he says he wishes for us to become one with him. Two very different, non-equal, precepts in my estimation.

It's more like we already are equal to God in an eternal sense, and God wants us to recognize that, and become even more like him, because the recognition that we are like God gives us hope. See Moroni 7:48: "Pray unto the Father...that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure."

Edited by Cobalt-70, 27 April 2012 - 04:34 PM.

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#78 calmoriah

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    Dulce de labris loquuntur, corde vivunt noxio.

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 04:56 PM

Yes, that first part represents an interesting but perhaps false dichotomy. I think thought and emotion are actually inseparable. I think that one could not survive without emotion- it is hard to evaluate logically about whether or not life is worth living while one is running, rather emotionally from a bear attack, screaming for one's life!

I suspect that everyone ultimately has an emotional "axe to grind" which is probably what actually generates most "intellectual" agendas.

For normal human beings, it is definitely a false dichotomy, due to the way the brain communicates with itself, affect does not exist separately from cognition nor does cognition exist separately from affect. It is merely a convenient way to discuss different aspects of the same internal event, just as one can discuss position by breaking it down into length, width and height.
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When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
UMW forever!

#79 Maidservant

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 08:24 PM

is passed down from father to (usually) firstborn son


You know, this is something that is on my mind these days. In the scriptures, both Bible and Book of Mormon, it seems to me that a great deal of effort is taken to over and over (in taking the storis as templates), to show the heirship going to the younger son. As I said, I am thinking through this.

parrticularly given the singular use of the word "father" and the specific mention of male names (Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc.) in relation to the fathers, and the conspicuous absence of female names in relation to the same.


Do you (not just you, all men) know what it's like to be female and to have to listen to the "male portion" of all teachings and to draw the mirrored "female portion" out of it (silent but THERE)? As a woman, everytime I hear or read on the male, I cannot say, That is not for me. I have to say, What does this say about me? I have to understand the female gender teaching from the stuff that is said out loud for the male. I don't think men have to do this, they can just listen plainly. EVEN if this passage of scripture really is about MEN leading PATRIARCHALLY and whatever that would apply on a day-to-day basis, as a women, I cannot simply pass by this passage and say, This is not about me. Where it says "Noah", I have to hear "Noah's wife" and I have to ask myself what she is doing (not leading? leading along with? cooking something nice for dinner? etc? etc? etc?) Where it says "Abraham" plainly for you, I have to hear "Sarah" and ask myself what THAT passage says about HER. I have to take the mirror out of all these passages. I don't think you realize that LDS and other religiously seeking females have to do this--do you know what it's like? I'm not saying I mind it. I rather like it actually. I used to think that the scriptures were silent on women, and I have come to see that they are not (for a variety of reasons), and that every place they mention on men, there is a woman there and I have to ask myself who she is and what she is doing while the man in the scripture is doing what has been recorded? Men don't have to do this in order to obey, and I don't think they realize the effort and the--I'm searching for a word--WAY--that women have to do this in order to know what to obey.

To answer the OP, one of the important things I find in the Book of Abraham is the way that the 4 Genesis accounts: Genesis, temple, Book of Moses and Book of Abraham--do NOT match. And I think there is a reason for this; that, in a word, it is meant to be a mash-up in order to get the full lens of truth.

I don't know if I have an overall takeaway from BofA, I like what has been suggested already in this thread. BofA for me is in the details, the clues.
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#80 JeremyOrbe-Smith

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:24 PM

A quote about Gods from Orson Scott Card's Xenocide, one of his best sci-fi books:

"You can't be scornful because you don't know her," said Wang-mu. "But she is brilliant and good and I can never be like her."

"Gods again," said Wiggin.

"Always gods," said Ela.

"What do you mean?" said Wang-mu. "Qing-jao doesn't say that she's a god, and neither do I."

"Yes you do," said Ela. "'Qing-jao is wise and good,' you said."

"'Brilliant and good,'" Wiggin corrected her.

"'And I can never be like her,'" Ela went on.

"Let me tell you about gods," said Wiggin. "No matter how smart or strong you are, there's always somebody smarter or stronger, and when you run into somebody who's stronger and smarter than anybody, you think, This is a god. This is perfection. But I can promise you that there's somebody else somewhere else who'll make your god look like a maggot by comparison. And somebody smarter or stronger or better in some way. So let me tell you what I think about gods. I think a real god is not going to be so scared or angry that he tries to keep other people down. For Congress to genetically alter people to make them smarter and more creative, that could have been a godlike, generous gift. But they were scared, so they hobbled the people of Path. They wanted to stay in control. A real god doesn't care about control. A real god already has control of everything that needs controlling. Real gods would want to teach you how to be just like them."

"Qing-jao wanted to teach me," said Wang-mu.

"But only as long as you obeyed and did what she wanted," said Jane.

"I'm not worthy," said Wang-mu. "I'm too stupid to ever learn to be as wise as her."

"And yet you knew I spoke the truth," said Jane, "when all Qing-jao could see were lies."


Edited by JeremyOrbe-Smith, 28 April 2012 - 10:31 PM.

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