199 replies to this topic

[CV75]

reelmormon, on 03 May 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Wenglund,

This comes very natural for some... I wish it did for me.  Many of those who see things the way I do are not those who cared the least about Christ and the Church, many of them cared as much as anyone.  It is about my mind having to know to the Nth degree what is truth and needing to follow truth regardless of what direction it takes me.... I know it sounds strange and perhaps in a one on one face to face one could better understand another and make sense of all of it.

I may be reading too much into this, but there is a world of difference between someone saying “my mind having to know the truth to the Nth degree (or absolutely)” and saying “I need to know the truth.”

[CV75]

reelmormon, on 03 May 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Best way I can say it is this.  I have an expectation that the True church will be apparently and obviously true to an honest seeker of truth.  The honest seeker will know beyond a doubt that the Lord's church is the Lord's church.  All the dots will connect and one will live in the spirit each day building the kingdom, growing in grace, in knowledge, and in truth.... When I joined the dots connected almost perfectly and my understanding of the church seemed perfect.  Now, as I get older and am forced to think about things more deeply, I realize that not everything is as simple as it used to be.  There are major complications within LDS history and theology that no longer fit so easy into my expectation of the true church, of prophets, and apostles.  

Instead of my understanding being more and more  complete it becomes somewhat unraveled.  I become less and less sure of the things I was told were true.  Almost to a T every facet of the gospel has become less and less definitive, more and more gray area, more flexibility needed to allow for faith.  There is one exception - My understanding of the Book of Mormon.  Though as my understanding of Doctrine of Christ within the Book grows it matches up less and less with the wording and methods church leaders have used to describe the doctrine of Christ.   So even that is an issue.  

Tying in with my comment above: Knowing beyond a doubt (and to a T) requires faith beyond a doubt (and to a T) also; fortunately just a particle of it. Both lnowledge and faith start out small and expand with each other. Also the idea of feeling forced to think about things more deeply (whether the cause is getting older, exposure to others' ideas, or whatever else) is related to the difference between approaching this as "my mind" and as "me" or "I." The first is being acted upon; the latter is acting.

[wenglund]

reelmormon, on 03 May 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Wenglund,

This comes very natural for some... I wish it did for me.  Many of those who see things the way I do are not those who cared the least about Christ and the Church, many of them cared as much as anyone.  It is about my mind having to know to the Nth degree what is truth and needing to follow truth regardless of what direction it takes me.... I know it sounds strange and perhaps in a one on one face to face one could better understand another and make sense of all of it.

Actually, I think you explained it rather well in this quoted post above and the one that came after it.

However, it seems apparent to me that you are quite risk-averse, and have an unhealthy fear of being wrong, which may cause you to form unrealistic expectations in relation to matters of faith, while warping your priorities and perception of spirituality, which in turn heightens your unhealthy fear of being wrong. Its a downward cycle.

Is it any wonder that the somewhat vague, nuanced, not entirely certain ways of God cause you anxiety and incline you towards the relative safety of seemingly more certain ways of man?

While your situation is not all that uncommon (not a few people have left the faith for scientism), to some degree you have ill-equipped yourself for the journey through this life on earth where, particularly in spiritual terms, we see as if through a glass darkly. And, that is okay if safety is so important to you. However, remember the parable of the talents and what happened to the servant who received one talent and buried it in the earth for fear of losing it?

The good news is, change is possible. It takes moving on from the relative security of fundamentalist thinking, and being willing to do what it required and willing to trust in God and take the risks of it all blowing up in your face--as is well illustrated in the step of faith scene during the Indiana Jones film, The Last Crusade.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund, 03 May 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[DBMormon]

Log, I have appreciated yours and the comments of many others.  I am not on the ledge, just sharing how I see the world hoping we all might better understand those who go through this.  Do I have hard days... absolutely.... Do I have days that are spiritually awesome yes.... In fact I wish church was three days a weeks as Sundays help a lot... Sacrament and church bring me back to center.   I just know this is a real issue, one that many of you like to write off or simplify and yet when it happens.... there is a lot of pain and at least a real feeling of betrayal.  I hear what you guys are saying, I really am.  I know this next statement sounds cruel or like I am not listening, but most of what is said doesn't help.  What people like me need is someone to talk to one on one and walk them through several scenarios so they can understand how they got to where they did while others encounter the same material and take a different path.  If you read the first post on this thread of Part two, no one took the time to really tell their story, which is what was asked, so that I and others might compare your encounters with new conflicting information and reconciling that with previous frameworks.  

Any takers?   No one wants to tell their story, only why I am going about this the entirely wrong way
So.... each of you..... how have you handled this situation in the past and where you ever in a place where you struggled with your testimony... anyone brave enough to go there?

[DBMormon]

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The standard advice I give out is "ignore the Church"

Can one do that while taking a step back from full activity?   not pay tithing, turn down big callings?

[Log]

reelmormon, on 03 May 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Can one do that while taking a step back from full activity?   not pay tithing, turn down big callings?

While I would recommend continuing to pay your tithing - it has deeper effects than merely enriching the Church's coffers - I have turned down callings before because of my spiritual state.  I even asked another worthy brother to bless and name my son at around that time.  I did not participate in the circle.

Your relationship with God is what matters.  Once that is repaired, one's priorities become clearer.  What price are you willing to pay?

[Log]

reelmormon, on 03 May 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Any takers?   No one wants to tell their story, only why I am going about this the entirely wrong way
So.... each of you..... how have you handled this situation in the past and where you ever in a place where you struggled with your testimony... anyone brave enough to go there?

I'm not willing to go there publicly on the internet.

[DBMormon]

I understand Log, just making a point that people keep asking me to do things, to think about things, asking me my thought process while no one else was willing to jump in with me and tell their story.   I know at some point someone who knows me will read this, and pass many judgements on where I am and where my testimony is.  They will not ask me what this is about, they will simply pass judgements.  As a Bishop, I am aware of other members in my ward who feel this way.  Simply looking for ways to help as many as possible who live in this struggle.  It is a risk I felt that was needed so that others who come after could see such a dialogue (no pun intended.... well maybe a little) and develop ways to build faith and nurture it.   The reason I asked about the activity is members are made to feel guilty when turning callings down.  We give talks on how callings should always be accepted.  and yet I can absolutely see how one might be in a spiritual place so that turning a calling down might be the best thing at that time.

I would appreciate even hearing those who never had a major faith crisis to share the best they can recollect how they handle this information when their previous framework was much more basic and rigid?

[Darth_Bill]

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From what I can tell, your narrative (i.e. response to the data) wasn't "hey...the Church never told me about X, Y, and Z, and has thus breached my trust, causing me to lose faith." Instead, your narrative appears to have been: "hey...according to certain modern standards of men, some key aspects of the Church are 'crazy,' and in a gradually increasing way I couldn't have faith in craziness."

I can respect this, though I have a different narrative.

To be fair, and not to be punny, the church really didn't teach me any of this. I found out much of my deeper information on fair and this board. I only read books that appeared to be highly regarded by apologists on this board. Now, that might be just a product of the way I gather information. For example, I don't do extensive searches on lds.org. I find the church magazines so superficial that I stopped reading them many years ago. I have never really depended on the church for an accurate portrayal of its own history. I know that might not make much sense, but it is what it is. Consequently, I can't blame the church for hiding any of its history because I never looked to it for an accurate portrayal.

I wrote down something that is actually what I think I went through.  I stopped "privileging things in my own mind." William Law left the church...why. What was his real beef? Thomas Marsh left the church, what was the real reason? (Realize that apologetics is really the motivator to ridding the church of the "milk" story as well as other long held folklore, as a nuanced word.)  While these did have some pull, I do think the real reason was philisophical, like you mentioned.

And thank you for not assuming that some horrendous sin is automatically the reason for my issues. I am not trying to convert others and I'm not particularly bitter. The church has been the prime mover for most of my friendships and happiness in my life, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it in many things any longer.

Also, as with religion, man, and the works of man, have evil and good within them. Man is capable of horrific evil, but it also has the capability for incredible works. I no longer view humanity as inherently evil. It has helped me greatly in getting rid of the "us vs. them" issues I have had in the past, but that is just me.

[Maidservant]

I could write a long time about various turning points in my life in my relationship with the Church and with my Father in heaven.  I struggle daily with a lot of things in that relationship.  Some years ago,knowing my own mind and my own self, and knowing that I "travel" in my mind over various ideas and hold various ideas in tension or suspension without landing on them, I knew I could go insane on this.  I also became aware that, having come across several surprising facts or ideas (some historical), I realized that that process was never going to end--I was always going to be surprised and shocked.  So I made a deliberate decision for myself.  I selected what I call a foundation belief.  I decided for myself that whatever changed, I would rest on this one belief.  That way everything could change--Pres. Monson has bookies, Joseph Smith married to men, Islam is the true religion, whatever, however shocking--but one thing wasn't going to change, for me.  I knew it was a decision on my part, not necessarily "true".  Just what I plain out and out CHOSE TO BELIEVE.  The belief I chose was this:  I am a daughter of my heavenly Father.  Everything else I learn and know, or think I know, or find out I don't really know, is subjected to this belief.

If I ever lose my faith in this reality, then I will be in deep trouble; and, yes, I do have struggles on this, on whether I am a daughter of a heavenly Father.  So the struggle never ends.

Every day I wonder if this is the day that I am going to "leave" the Church.  The reasons I would leave and the reasons I stay are highly personal to me.  And I am satisifed that this is my struggle.  I am glad that this is the angel I am wrestling to get my blessing from.   (For the last few years I was going to college and it took me 2 hours to drive each way, so I had a lot of thinking and praying time and I used to joke with my mother that near the beginning of my drive I would take my name off the records of the church, and by the time I got home I was ready to put it back on, ha ha ).  Anyway, there may still be a day that I will leave, but I think the reasons would not be the ones you express, rather they are personal to me and my struggle.  And I am taking a chance sharing this, being super honest here.  I actually really like the Church.  I think it's amazing, miraculous, and I find that just the fact that it exists is a sign (to me) of my Father in heaven.  I don't mind all the human-ness in the Church, in fact, that's what makes me want to stay.  My problems are more direct with heavenly Father.

Here is a realization/reconciliation I have that has helped me understand the situation of the church and its history.  Most people are thinking of the Church as it is now, a huge international institution that is HIDING THINGS.  But for example, especially on the matter of polygamy, we have to remember that the early Church were FAMILIES, who gathered, who were settling towns, who were getting persecuted, killed, incarcerated, their property confiscated.  So, for better or worse, DUH, they are going to not be fully forthcoming with "outsiders".  They are just people trying to protect themselves as humans and as a community.  So somehow this 'hiding' from people who would never understand (a hostile government and society) has turned into 'hiding' from ourselves (and from new and ongoing generations of international members).  That's how I see it anyway.  In other words, a mistake? Maybe.  We get to be more open now? That would be lovely.  A conspiracy? Absolutely not.

[DBMormon]

Maidservant..... I applaud you for sharing this.  While the object of struggle you imply is different, the feelings and emotion and struggle sems very similar... thank you for your thoughts as I really appreciate them.

For me it is the same as another poster put... at the end of the day their testimony rest on the tomb is empty.  So does mine.  He is risen.  Along with that..... I see a ton of beauty in the Book of Mormon.  I see delicate intricacies that seem very profound, very connected, very inspirational.

Have an awesome day Maidservant and thanks again

[wenglund]

Darth_Bill, on 04 May 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

While these did have some pull, I do think the real reason was philosophical, like you mentioned.

For what it is worth, from my experience, this too is not uncommon. I have thought a lot about why this may happen, and what I came up with was that philosophically-driven loss of faith tends to be because certain members are looking for answers to certain questions that the Church isn't designed at this time to fully and satisfactorily answer, and they are looking for those answers in ways that differ from how the Church is designed to provide them. In short, like with those who may lose faith after learning about some so-called "hidden" aspect of Church history, certain members lose faith due to philosophical reasons because of mistaken expectations about what is the purpose of the Church/gospel and how the Church/gospel rightly works. Metaphorically, it is like using construction or medical tools and equipment to research quantum physics. Those tools aren't designed for this purpose, though they work quite well for the purpose for which they are designed, and when used in the way they were designed.

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And thank you for not assuming that some horrendous sin is automatically the reason for my issues.

No problem. However, I think in may be important to understand that from the perspective of the Church/gospel, it is a sin to not trust in God and his Church/gospel and to not use the Church/gospel as it is designed, and to separate oneself from God and his Church/gospel. So, in this sense, loss of faith is unavoidably a function of and constitutes sin. But, I get what you are saying.

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I am not trying to convert others and I'm not particularly bitter. The church has been the prime mover for most of my friendships and happiness in my life, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it in many things any longer.

I can appreciate this. I hope you know also that the Church respects your right to worship how, where, and what you might, though not always do we members adhere fully and properly to this tenant.

Quote

Also, as with religion, man, and the works of man, have evil and good within them. Man is capable of horrific evil, but it also has the capability for incredible works. I no longer view humanity as inherently evil. It has helped me greatly in getting rid of the "us vs. them" issues I have had in the past, but that is just me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund, 04 May 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[Darth_Bill]

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No problem. However, I think in may be important to understand that from the perspective of the Church/gospel, it is a sin to not trust in God and his Church/gospel and to not use the Church/gospel as it is designed, and to separate oneself from God and his Church/gospel. So, in this sense, loss of faith is unavoidably a function of and constitutes sin.

Yeah, viscous circle that. Considering that in the paradigm of Christianity, we are all sinners, I guess I'm in extremely good company, like, everyone. I guess I can live with that.

[wenglund]

Maidservant, on 04 May 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

The belief I chose was this: I am a daughter of my heavenly Father.

This is cherishable, and it was good of you to share your thoughts.

I wonder, though, if your struggles with Heavenly Father may be somewhat lessened were you to tweak your belief just a bit to say: I am a daughter of my Heavenly Father, and I am seeking earnestly to become like him." This gives your belief more than just significant meaning. It give it purpose, direction, and points that allow for viable measurement (where you wish to go, where you were yesterday, where you are now,  and how far you traveled in-between). Perhaps in your travels to and from school or to wherever, you can use the time to contemplate your spiritual travel to see whether you are moving in the right direction in terms of increase in love, joy, fulfilling relationships, and understanding--though be merciful in your expectations about the speed at which you ought to be traveling and some possible side trips that may have distracted you. See if this doesn't lighten and somewhat resolve or render insignificant some of your current challenges.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[DBMormon]

1.) it has been stated here that because I follow Dehlin and others who struggle, that is where I got the term cognitive dissonance and that I have simply taken my paradigm and made it fit into the paradigm of others who are like Dehlin... wrong.  I have been struggling with this for about 5 or 6 years off an on.  I only started listening to podcasts online for about the last 6 months.  I got the term cognitive dissonance from Wendy Ulrich or reading Fair's comments on the book Shaken Faith Syndrome which I haven't read.

2.) Ben, I am not ignoring you.  Only that from time to time you keep telling me the underlying way in which my brain is assimilating information.  That is great and I agree with much of what you say.  Yet if someone tells me how I think, it doesn't in any way help me take a step back and see how I think in relationship to others and how they have dealt with this.

I want to shake all this.  I am not looking for a way out, rather I am looking for a way to buy in completely with full heart.  But it has to be in a way that I am comfortable with.  In other words I have to see things differently then I do right now to be completely comfortable in my LDS skin.  I don't want to join another Christian Church, don't want to be another faith altogether, don't want to have the extra day to myself and simply abandon God altogether.  I am looking for a reasonable way to approach all the hiccups.

Wenglund.... How did you handle these things when you first became aware that things were not as you were taught or what you believed?

Ben Maguire..... I see you grasping at the cognitive method we each use but in a real sense how did you handle this paradigm when first confronted with it.


Kevin .... While all faith requires a leap into the unexplainable or unknown.  While real faith must be tested and in the end is based on things hoped for that are "hopefully" true.  While all religious directions require us to place belief in something that is at least in some degree unreasonable... Does the LDS paradigm require too much use of plausible deniability, mental gymnastics, and extreme flexibility to go beyond reasonable faith.  Does what I see at times as the use of the three previous methods, when compared with how you see these same explanations..... To you are they reasonable?

All of you.... Do you feel the allowances made to maintain faith as reasonable?  or do you say to yourselves that all religious systems are unreasonable... yet with God all things are possible, so to make the leaps and allowances are going to happen anywhere.  To believe Moses parted the sea, Christ walked on water, Dahli Llama this, Buddah that, Confuscious, taoist, ect... all require belief in things that are unreasonable and yet somewhere we each need to make the leap and just not sweat the small stuff.  ignoring spiritual reasons for a moment as they happen to all believers of every faith tradition. So while they are real to me, they are also real to the Muslim, evangelical, and Buddist as well so to me for the purpose of this discussion are to be set aside.  That essentially there will always be more cognitive, informational reasons to disbelieve and at some point we have to rest ourselves on something.   That no matter how many hoops have to be jumped through that my spiritual confirmation is all I have to go on and I simply need to set all the problems aside and wait till the other side to make sense of it all......  Can we say something requires just too much lienency, too many times of slack being cut, to many giant leaps of faith when the more reasonable answer is a smaller jump, and that process happening a hundred times where you make the bigger leap for most of them.

you can each answer the questions pointed directly at someone if you wish.

Don't get me wrong, plenty of evidence for the church, plenty of postive things to fall back on.  I am not saying every path leads to a challenge of faith.  Many of my explorations into church history and theology have been faith promoting.  Like I said before I have enough evidence to prove the church true or false to myself.  It is just with the true church my expectation is that half the paths wouldn't require a major leap to bridge the gaps

Edited by reelmormon, 04 May 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[wenglund]

Darth_Bill, on 04 May 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Yeah, viscous circle that. Considering that in the paradigm of Christianity, we are all sinners, I guess I'm in extremely good company, like, everyone. I guess I can live with that.

Me too.

The point, as I see it, in acknowledging sin, isn't for reasons of condemnation or self-flagellation so to speak, but rather as a healthy cause for assessment and reevaluation in determining what may be in one's best interest.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CV75]

reelmormon, on 04 May 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

I understand Log, just making a point that people keep asking me to do things, to think about things, asking me my thought process while no one else was willing to jump in with me and tell their story.   I know at some point someone who knows me will read this, and pass many judgements on where I am and where my testimony is.  They will not ask me what this is about, they will simply pass judgements.  As a Bishop, I am aware of other members in my ward who feel this way.  Simply looking for ways to help as many as possible who live in this struggle.  It is a risk I felt that was needed so that others who come after could see such a dialogue (no pun intended.... well maybe a little) and develop ways to build faith and nurture it.   The reason I asked about the activity is members are made to feel guilty when turning callings down.  We give talks on how callings should always be accepted.  and yet I can absolutely see how one might be in a spiritual place so that turning a calling down might be the best thing at that time.

I would appreciate even hearing those who never had a major faith crisis to share the best they can recollect how they handle this information when their previous framework was much more basic and rigid?

As a bishop simply seeking to help others with the same struggle, discussion in ward council or with your stake president seems more appropriate than challenging posters to be “brave enough to go there.” Not everyone has to be a sufferer of a specific problem to be able to help one that does have it; the Spirit goes a long way, and faith in councils and priesthood leaders is a good way to access the Spirit.

Perhaps prayerfully bringing up the topic of discussion, “How can we help those who struggle with feeling that the Church is not up front with historical facts that they find objectionable?” A certain amount of preparation (study, fasting, prayer, etc.) going into this is required so that the Spirit can be present with each person involved in the discussion (whether between two or within a council).

[DBMormon]

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As a bishop simply seeking to help others with the same struggle, discussion in ward council or with your stake president seems more appropriate than challenging posters to be “brave enough to go there.” Not everyone has to be a sufferer of a specific problem to be able to help one that does have it; the Spirit goes a long way, and faith in councils and priesthood leaders is a good way to access the Spirit.

How can anyone ever work though this if everyone is hesitant to share their experience.  I am not asking for everyone to bear their deepest secrets, just how they worked through it.  No one needs to tell their specific hangup, just the process.  Also I wasn't looking for negative stories, I was asking more for those who never had this kind of hangup to describe how they handled it, saw it, worked with it, the methods they used that others who had a hangup perhaps didn't.


This isn't something I would ever do on a Ward level.  I came here assuming that those on these boards have dealt with this stuff repeatedly, that it wouldn't be new to them, nor would it be troubling for them to share insight helpful to others.  that essentially by coming here, I am learning without putting anyone else at risk.

Unfortunately, this is notanything I would bring up to my stake presidency as at least part of that group is very fundamental in their approach.  I have no desire to hurt faith nor have anyone make assumptions at the local level.  I came here.... for all the reasons stated above.  I want nothing more then we better understand how these folks feel and why they feel as they do, discover what they need and what steps we take to remove this stumbling block.

My dream is that as a church and it's members, we remove this obstacle for the next generation as much as we can.  There need be more empathy, concern, and Christlike one on one watch-care.  

Again, the first post asked that any willing answer the following questions.... very few have tried, yet we are 3 pages in.  If the  thread is asking too much so be it....

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1.) Why do the faithfull seem to discredit ever looking at the church truth in a Hisotrical manner. Not they they don't value history, just not as a mode of determining the possible validity of an event worth having faith in. In otherwords why can't faith ever be rooted at least in part in History. Ex: While one may have faith in Jesus or not, and though Historically we can never prove anything, it is a fact that Jesus was resurrected or he wasn't. While faith is a large part of it. That faith is based on a historical event. Is there value in trying to find out historically if things happened the way Jospeh Smith and others said, and if it becomes extremely obvious they are not factual or historical, is that reason to rethink one's testimony based on the historical opinion?

2.) Can the faithful share how when these issues (though perhaps not troubling to them) were encountered, how they approached each one.
- what you thought of it originally
- how you approached it
- what was of help
- what wasn't
-Whether you ever really get past it completely or just recognize that you can explain it enough to move on?

3.) For the former member - Why have you sought to give more presidence to your framework then the spiritual experiences you once had within the context of the church?

Edited by reelmormon, 04 May 2012 - 10:00 AM.

[DBMormon]

Quote

As a bishop simply seeking to help others with the same struggle, discussion in ward council or with your stake president seems more appropriate than challenging posters to be “brave enough to go there.” Not everyone has to be a sufferer of a specific problem to be able to help one that does have it; the Spirit goes a long way, and faith in councils and priesthood leaders is a good way to access the Spirit.

Also I have helped each of those I am aware of in this struggle.  I have encouraged them.  I have sat down with them and spent hours with them.  Please know that while you may sense sarcasm at times and frustration,  I seek answers and a productive discussion so that I and thousand of others who struggle might find some way to transition their thinking to better accomdate a paradigm of faith, good gospel soil where it can grow.

Edited by reelmormon, 04 May 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[wenglund]

reelmormon, on 04 May 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Wenglund.... How did you handle these things when you first became aware that things were not as you were taught or what you believed?

I have considered them, not in isolation, but within the rich context of my developing LDS epistemology, including orienting my examination of these new things to me in relation to the ultimate purpose of the Church/gospel, using the methods instituted by God, trusting in him.

I view such new things not so much a challenges to my faith, but rather as opportunities for growth. And, as usual, I am not disappointed. For me, it is about doing and concerning myself with what matters and what works and not fussing needlessly over the rest.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-