The Power Of The Sealing

[Brian 2.0]

What benefit does the actually sealing ordinance provide from an eternal perspective?

It seems that the blessings of the sealing ordinance are dependent upon our faithfulness. But if we are faithful, we'll be in the celestial kingdom anyway.

Put the opposite way... If I am not sealed to my child, but both of us live all the laws and inherit celestial glory... what's the difference? Would I really not be able to see that child because I wasn't sealed to them?

I remember reading "When a Child Wanders" years ago and in it Robert Millet says something to the effect that faithful parents of wayward children will find that in the eternities their children will come back, almost saying there will be more chances for that child, and they won't be lost. Is there any other place people have heard about this doctrine, any other quotes.

[Log]

What benefit does the actually sealing ordinance provide from an eternal perspective?

It seems that the blessings of the sealing ordinance are dependent upon our faithfulness. But if we are faithful, we'll be in the celestial kingdom anyway.

Put the opposite way... If I am not sealed to my child, but both of us live all the laws and inherit celestial glory... what's the difference? Would I really not be able to see that child because I wasn't sealed to them?

I remember reading "When a Child Wanders" years ago and in it Robert Millet says something to the effect that faithful parents of wayward children will find that in the eternities their children will come back, almost saying there will be more chances for that child, and they won't be lost. Is there any other place people have heard about this doctrine, any other quotes.

If we may picture our celestialized, sealed family as a tree, with God as the trunk and the rest of us as branches of varying thickness, I think that's a pretty good analogy to the way things will probably be. I think if we're not sealed to someone, they'll be on a different part of the tree, but we'll all still be unified, and whole.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Log

[Spammer]

What does sealing even mean, really? Assuming the traditional Christian view of heaven is true (Catholic/Orthodox) and my wife, kids and I all make it to heaven, what will I lack that I would have in the LDS exalted realm of the Celestial Kingdom? If I want to sidle up next to my wife and put my arm around her will God stop me? Can I say "Hi honey! Nice to see you made it! I love you!" or will God cast a withering glance my way to remind me that I can't talk that way anymore since we're no longer married? Can I walk around heaven holding my wife's hand or will Jesus come up and say, "sorry Spammer, you're no longer married...remember 'til death do you part? No hand holding!'" If my parents are there can I run up and hug them and say "hi mom and dad!" or will that be verboten because we're not sealed? Will my memory of my marriage,parenthood and sonship be wiped out by Jesus because none of us are sealed to each other? Really, I don't get it. What is a sealing, exactly, and what will it give me that I won't have in the traditional Christian heaven?

[zerinus]

The relevant LDS scriptures that deal with this subject are as follows:

D&C 131:

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of emarriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an aincrease.

D&C 132:

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

I think the meaning is clear.

Edited April 24, 2012 by zerinus

[Spammer]

So, I'll be able to hang out with my ex-wife, hold her hand, walk around heaven talking and laughing and reminiscing, enjoying each others' company - just as we did on earth - but I won't be a god and she won't be a goddess and we won't have "eternal increase". Does that sum it up?

[zerinus]

So, I'll be able to hang out with my ex-wife, hold her hand, walk around heaven talking and laughing and reminiscing, enjoying each others' company - just as we did on earth - but I won't be a god and she won't be a goddess and we won't have "eternal increase". Does that sum it up?

She won't be your wife at all. More likely she will be somebody else's wife, who will be more worthy of the privilege; and you will be left in the lurch!

[Spammer]

She won't be your wife at all. More likely she will be somebody else's wife, who will be more worthy of the privilege; and you will be left in the lurch!

But assume that she's there with me in the Terrestrial Kingdom, through her own choice. Does my summary statement accurately summarize? We won't be a god or goddess or have eternal increase, but we can walk around together holding hands, laughing and reminiscing and enjoying each others' company. For eternity. Correct?

[zerinus]

But assume that she's there with me in the Terrestrial Kingdom, through her own choice. Does my summary statement accurately summarize? We won't be a god or goddess or have eternal increase, but we can walk around together holding hands, laughing and reminiscing and enjoying each others' company. For eternity. Correct?

I suppose you could do that with any lady friend here on earth if you wanted to (including with someone else's wife, if her husband didn't object). Not quite the same as being married to her though!

[Spammer]

I suppose you could do that with any lady friend here on earth if you wanted to (including with someone else's wife, if her husband didn't object). Not quite the same as being married to her though!

Does presence of the marital bond deepen the relationship or is it an outward sign that signifies the permanence of a relationship already established? It seems the value of an eternal sealing (for those who do not believe in Joseph Smith) would lie precisely here. There must be something about marriage that marks a dividing line between two qualitatively distinct modes of the relationship.

[Spammer]

In other words, it seems to me that the statement "I loved my wife before we were married but after the moment of our marriage my love for her became even stronger" or something like it must apply at a deep level in our actual experience to avoid the conclusion that marriage is primarily an outward sign and a licence to procreate.

[Spammer]

Or put it another way. I love my wife now. At the moment "til death do you part" applies, will my love for her necessarily be altered in either quality or quantity? Again, it seems the answer must be "yes" if marriage is nothing more than a contract and license to procreate.

[zerinus]

Does presence of the marital bond deepen the relationship or is it an outward sign that signifies the permanence of a relationship already established? It seems the value of an eternal sealing (for those who do not believe in Joseph Smith) would lie precisely here. There must be something about marriage that marks a dividing line between two qualitatively distinct modes of the relationship.

In other words, it seems to me that the statement "I loved my wife before we were married but after the moment of our marriage my love for her became even stronger" or something like it must apply at a deep level in our actual experience to avoid the conclusion that marriage is primarily an outward sign and a licence to procreate.

Or put it another way. I love my wife now. At the moment "til death do you part" applies, will my love for her necessarily be altered in either quality or quantity? Again, it seems the answer must be "yes" if marriage is nothing more than a contract and license to procreate.

Or look at it another way. While you are unmarried here on earth, you can take any other unmarried lady on a date, hold her hands, kiss her on her cheek; and so can somebody else. And beyond that you cannot go. If you and your wife go to the terrestrial kingdom by your own choice, you will no longer will be married, and the same situation will prevail there (I presume). You can take her out on a date, and so can somebody else.

[Buzzard]

Or put it another way. I love my wife now. At the moment "til death do you part" applies, will my love for her necessarily be altered in either quality or quantity? Again, it seems the answer must be "yes" if marriage is nothing more than a contract and license to procreate.

Well, here is the way we LDS look at it. When you get to the other side and see that we were right all along, provided the spirit has not witnessed that to you already in this life, then you will be on your spirit knees praying that one of your descendants will join the church and do your temple work so that you and your wife CAN be sealed and married for eternity.

[Spammer]

Or look at it another way. While you are unmarried here on earth, you can take any other unmarried lady on a date, hold her hands, kiss her on her cheek; and so can somebody else. And beyond that you cannot go. If you and your wife go to the terrestrial kingdom by your own choice, you will no longer will be married, and the same situation will prevail there (I presume). You can take her out on a date, and so can somebody else.

Ah..but keeping with the hypothetical situation I envisioned, let's assume my wife volunteers for the Terrestrial Kingdom so she can be with me and only with me. We're no longer married, but so what? Anyone who asks her out on a date will be turned down. I still get to hold her hand, laugh and reminisce, be in love, have an eternal, romantic relationship. The relationship just won't be sexual.

[Spammer]

Well, here is the way we LDS look at it. When you get to the other side and see that we were right all along, provided the spirit has not witnessed that to you already in this life, then you will be on your spirit knees praying that one of your descendants will join the church and do your temple work so that you and your wife CAN be sealed and married for eternity.

You first have to convince me that the kind of eternal relationship I will have with my wife in the Terrestrial Kingdom will be qualitatively distinct from a Celestial relationship - if you remove from consideration the godhood and eternal increase component.

[Maidservant]

These are good questions, Spammer, and you've awakened in me a desire to know more about sealing.

I don't know about husband-wife relationship, but for myself, I know that we will know our families and that nothing can wipe out the event of our birth to them. For example, my biological father had a very troubled life and, in fact, I was adopted legally by my step-father in a very long story. But the point being is that I am never going to forget my biological father, I miss him terribly (he's passed on now), and in any eternity where the possibility comes that I can visit him and continue that father-daughter relationship, that is exactly what I am going to do. And if there is any eternity where that is barred to me, I will not be in any happiness and "the celestial kingdom" will be worthless to me. By the same token, I have a brother who has troubles. The rest of my brothers and sisters have sealings in the temples and my brother hasn't prepared himself to go yet. If he and we die in this way, he can NEVER stop being our brother, and I'm pretty sure he will still be invited to dinner in our eternal homes.

I should disclose that, for the most part, I don't hold the idea that human beings will be geographically separated from each other into "telestial", "terrestrial" and "celestial" planets or camps or cities or whatever. My personal understanding is that, as the human family, we will still be together, more or less (barring those who truly wish to harm and may need to be directed to another place for safety reasons). And that when the scriptures give the idea that others cannot come into the celestial kingdom, it is a matter of progress that those who do not keep laws cannot know the miracles and blessings and realities of those laws. For example, again, my brother cannot know what it is to be a husband and father--until he does it. A person who is unwilling to forgive can never know what it's like to be a forgiving person--he cannot "come" there. And he might not believe how wonderful it is. It's like the parable of the ten virgins--we all have to have our own oil.

I also reject the idea that the purpose of the sealing is some sort of hierarchical kingdom with the father on the throne and his one plus wives in a counselor position, and his children looking to him as a leader. Of course, it is natural in a loving family for children to admire the father and perhaps take his advice. But, let's face it, as we imagine now at least, we are all going to be adults after we complete mortality, and if we are all in sealing couples (or plus), then who is there that is going to need to be ruled? I mean, seriously, me and my husband are going to spend a lot of time just TRAVELING (Andromeda Galaxy anyone?), and GARDENING and whatnot--I am not going to be micromanaging my children and their spouses, who are already in a sealing with their spouse and living their independent lives of love with each other. The only thing I'm gonna do is a lot of texting with them, and the frequent family BBQ.

So I guess I have the same question you do. What is exactly is the necessity and nature of the sealing? I don't doubt that there is a necessary nature to it, but I think I need to learn exactly what that is, since it doesn't seem to be any of the things I traditionally thought.

[zerinus]

Ah..but keeping with the hypothetical situation I envisioned, let's assume my wife volunteers for the Terrestrial Kingdom so she can be with me and only with me. We're no longer married, but so what? Anyone who asks her out on a date will be turned down. I still get to hold her hand, laugh and reminisce, be in love, have an eternal, romantic relationship. The relationship just won't be sexual.

You first have to convince me that the kind of eternal relationship I will have with my wife in the Terrestrial Kingdom will be qualitatively distinct from a Celestial relationship - if you remove from consideration the godhood and eternal increase component.

Mormon doctrine is that which is revealed in Mormon scripture; and according to the verses I quoted, those who choose to opt out of eternal marriage will simply not be married in the next life, and will therefore not enjoy the kind of companionship that that relationship brings. What kinds of relationships they will be able to enjoy is anybody's guess.

[Buzzard]

You first have to convince me that the kind of eternal relationship I will have with my wife in the Terrestrial Kingdom will be qualitatively distinct from a Celestial relationship - if you remove from consideration the godhood and eternal increase component.

Is your relationship with your wife different now than when she was your girlfriend? Even removing "marital relations", my guess is yes. Well, that's the difference.

Also, the godhood and eternal increase won't be removed. Hard to argue that wouldn't make much of a difference.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Buzzard

[Calm]

Ah..but keeping with the hypothetical situation I envisioned, let's assume my wife volunteers for the Terrestrial Kingdom so she can be with me and only with me. We're no longer married, but so what? Anyone who asks her out on a date will be turned down. I still get to hold her hand, laugh and reminisce, be in love, have an eternal, romantic relationship. The relationship just won't be sexual.

I think it will be more than just being able to have eternal increase in a Celestial marriage. One needs to remember that the Kingdoms aren't just about location or what one is allowed to do. It is also about the quality and attributes of the person there. Someone who has chosen the Terrestrial Kingdom has accepted part of the Atonement, the forgiveness of his sins, but not all of the blessings the Lord is willing to share with him, he does not receive the full inheritance. He has given his personal wants and desires a greater place in his life than the Will of the Lord. He has chosen not to be come fully one with God and therefore not fully one with anyone else.

All these choices mean that the deepness of any relationship that occurs on a Terrestrial level will be much more superficial/shallow than one that exists between Celestial beings, whether it's marriage or brothers or parent and child or some other family relationship (we are all family in the CK, the sealing provides for that). Since we currently lack the ability to share at this level, we have no way to compare the difference but at the very least it will be like the difference between how two young children who see the world as revolving around them, who see the other as more of an extension of them than a separate being and thus are unable to see the other as they truly are and a relationship between a man and woman who have lovingly lived their lives together, given up and sacrificed for each other sometimes even their cherished dreams because they care more about the happiness of their loved one and the healthiness of their relationship, and who have reached the point where they can communicate with each other almost without words. Perhaps it will even be as different to the degree that a relationship between two blind, deaf and mute individuals is different from the relationship between two people who can do all that plus read each other's mind.

If you don't want a relationship that is more than what it is in this life, than it would seem the Terrestrial would make a relatively good fit. Relationships with no strings attached, but not much depth either....at least in comparison to what might be. However, if you want a relationship like that which is promised by the Lord for his children where man and wife are truly one with each other and with the Lord with all that implies, then one will need to open oneself up to the Lord, humble oneself by accepting the Lord's Will as one's own (and since the Lord's Will is about giving joy to his children, the only sacrifice is putting one's pride on the altar, imo), and embrace the fullness of the Atonement.

Edited April 24, 2012 by calmoriah

[Brian 2.0]

Back to my original question...

If parents are sealed to their children, and that child is not faithful to the church, but the parents are true and faithful is the sealing to the child null and void? Will there be any benefit to the parents or the child having been sealed to each other?

[Brian 2.0]

Here's the quotes I was looking for:

From Robert Millet's book "When a Child Wanders."

"The Holy One of Israel, who is the Mediator of the covenant, has promised that when a seal is placed upon a father and mother--a seal that comes through faithfulness to their eternal covenants--their children will be bound to them forever. Even if the children stray, the tentacles of the everlasting covenant will feel after them and they shall, either here or hereafter, return to the fold. We do not fully understand all of the implications of this marvelous promise, but we trust in the ransoming and redeeming power of our Lord who is also our Savior."

Quoting Lorenzo Snow:

"God has fulfilled his promises to us." President Lorenzo Snow explained, 'and our prospects are grand and glorious. Yes, in the next life we will have our wives, and our sons and daughters. If we do not get them all at once, we will have them some time, for every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Christ. You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and daughters. If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning in yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. In as much as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will have our posterity... God will accomplish his purposes in the salvation of His sons and daughters... " (Address delivered 6 Oct. 1893 in Collected Discourses, 3:36-65.)

Is this considered doctrine today?

[Brian 2.0]

This from Boyd K. Packer in 1992. Boyd K. Packer, “Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 66

The measure of our success as parents, however, will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.

It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.

It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled.

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, p. 110.)

We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them. President Brigham Young said:

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., 2:90–91.)

[Duncan]

This from Boyd K. Packer in 1992. Boyd K. Packer, “Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 66

The measure of our success as parents, however, will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.

It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.

It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled.

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, p. 110.)

We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them. President Brigham Young said:

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., 2:90–91.)

these quotations indicate that regardless of what a child does they will be exalted anyways so what is the point? should I drink, smoke, carouse all I want because my parents are pretty good and they've been sealed?

Edited April 24, 2012 by Duncan

[Spammer]

I think it will be more than just being able to have eternal increase in a Celestial marriage. One needs to remember that the Kingdoms aren't just about location or what one is allowed to do. It is also about the quality and attributes of the person there. Someone who has chosen the Terrestrial Kingdom has accepted part of the Atonement, the forgiveness of his sins, but not all of the blessings the Lord is willing to share with him, he does not receive the full inheritance. He has given his personal wants and desires a greater place in his life than the Will of the Lord. He has chosen not to be come fully one with God and therefore not fully one with anyone else.

All these choices mean that the deepness of any relationship that occurs on a Terrestrial level will be much more superficial/shallow than one that exists between Celestial beings, whether it's marriage or brothers or parent and child or some other family relationship (we are all family in the CK, the sealing provides for that). Since we currently lack the ability to share at this level, we have no way to compare the difference but at the very least it will be like the difference between how two young children who see the world as revolving around them, who see the other as more of an extension of them than a separate being and thus are unable to see the other as they truly are and a relationship between a man and woman who have lovingly lived their lives together, given up and sacrificed for each other sometimes even their cherished dreams because they care more about the happiness of their loved one and the healthiness of their relationship, and who have reached the point where they can communicate with each other almost without words. Perhaps it will even be as different to the degree that a relationship between two blind, deaf and mute individuals is different from the relationship between two people who can do all that plus read each other's mind.

If you don't want a relationship that is more than what it is in this life, than it would seem the Terrestrial would make a relatively good fit. Relationships with no strings attached, but not much depth either....at least in comparison to what might be. However, if you want a relationship like that which is promised by the Lord for his children where man and wife are truly one with each other and with the Lord with all that implies, then one will need to open oneself up to the Lord, humble oneself by accepting the Lord's Will as one's own (and since the Lord's Will is about giving joy to his children, the only sacrifice is putting one's pride on the altar, imo), and embrace the fullness of the Atonement.

All of this assumes that the character of relationships in the Celestial Kingdom will vary by virtue of who I'm sealed to. Will I be sealed to my wife and kids in a unique way or will everyone in the CK be sealed to each other? When all relationships are perfected in Christ, what will the phrase "I love my wife" even mean? Will I love my wife more or differently than my love for others? It seems if I love my wife more then my love is not yet perfect.

Regarding the prior point, it seems the better analogy is what happens to the feelings I have for my wife when the clause "til death do you part" is invoked? Suppose a bureaucratic snafu is discovered in the paperwork for my marriage here on earth and all along our marriage was never valid? Does our marital relationship and the attendent emotions depend on the perception that we're married or on the paperwork? What happens to our relationship and the emotions when we learn the marriage was never valid in the first place? Upon learning the fact, does the character of our feelings for each other magically change? I say no way. This clearly has implications for our relationship after death.

[Calm]

<div>

It seems if I love my wife more then my love is not yet perfect.

Is it not possible to have perfect love, yet love people differently (because they are different)? Is it not possible that there are different forms of perfect love and the perfect love one has for one's wife is different than the perfect love one has for one's children or one's friends?</div>

<div> </div>

<div>

<div>

Upon learning the fact, does the character of our feelings for each other magically change? I say no way. This clearly has implications for our relationship after death.

I would tend to agree. What is different is that a Terrestrial relationship has limits (just as we do in the here and now) on it that are not present in the Celestial Kingdom. A Terrestrial relationship can only progress so far past the point of the relationship in mortality (and lacks some of the forms of interaction available here such as ongoing parenthood), a Celestial relationship has no such limits.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>If one is satisfied with what one has here, feels this is enough and any more of a connection perhaps would be too much or some other reason, it is unlikely one would want the deeper, richer quality of a Celestial relationship.</div>

</div>