69 replies to this topic

[calmoriah]

Law, let me suggest you invest the time (it should not take you that long) to read the basic Sunday School manual, Gospel Principles.  It will save you so much confusion and time and make these discussion much more meaningful and maybe even interesting for you.  Very simple to read so it's quick and if you want, the scriptures used to support the doctrine are just a click away.

Here is the online version:

http://www.lds.org/m...ciples?lang=eng

For postmortal beliefs, see chapters 38, 40, 41, 46 and 47.

Edited by calmoriah, 22 April 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[Law22]

calmoriah, on 22 April 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Law, let me suggest you invest the time (it should not take you that long) to read the basic Sunday School manual, Gospel Principles.  It will save you so much confusion and time and make these discussion much more meaningful and maybe even interesting for you.  Very simple to read so it's quick and if you want, the scriptures used to support the doctrine are just a click away.

Here is the online version:

http://www.lds.org/m...ciples?lang=eng

For postmortal beliefs, see chapters 38, 40, 41, 46 and 47.

Thank you so much for the link but I've read it.

[selek1]

Law22, on 22 April 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Let me ask this: Do you believe that if a person is not a temple worthy Mormon, and they die after they are eight years old, and they are not the subject of post-mortem proxy, they cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom and will therefore never meet God or Jesus?

That's an awful lot of qualifiers, addenda, and provisos, Law22- almost to the point of absurdity.

Upon reading it, the first thing that sprang to mind was the Genie's lines about adenda and quid pro quo from the movie Alladin.

That having been said, no I don't (and based upon Mormon theology, cannot) rule out the possibility of such an one reaching the Celestial kingdom- for it is God who will judge them, based upon the light and law that was given to them.

Addressing your qualifiers one at a time, they strike me as arbitrary and artificial:

Quote

1) not a temple worthy Mormon,

"temple-worthy" is a qualifier governed by specific covenant.  Given that the vast population of humanity has not and likely will not be inducted into that covenant in this mortality, it is neither just nor logical to judge them by that standard.

Quote

2) they die after they are eight years old,

This goes back to the age of accountability.  Eight years old is the arbitrary rule of thumb established by revelation and practice- but it remains just that: a rule of thumb.  It is an irreducible tenet of Mormonism that each of us- Mormon, non-Mormon, Turk, Frank, Hottentot, Saxon, Norman, Democrat or Republican will be judged on our individual merits and account for our individual deeds.  Thus the qualifier as offered is a strawman, rather than a valid qualifier of salvation or damnation.

Quote

3) they are not the subject of post-mortem proxy

Ironically, this is the only qualifier that might possibly be a genuine hurdle- though not for the reasons you think.

First and foremost, we believe that everyone will be offered this rite: whether in this life or during the Millenium.

As such, there will be only two categories of people: those who received the baptismal and endowment ordinances in this life, and those who did not.

The former have no need of proxy baptism- and can yet be saved (which obviates your qualifier).

The latter will receive at least the offer of the ordinance- which they can accept or reject according to their own beliefs and conscience.

Why would those who genuinely seek Christ and his grace reject the ordinance when he offers it to them?



Ultimately, your argument and litany of qualifiers fails for one simple fact: all of those who can or will be redeemed- every single one- is ALREADY a recipient of salvation by proxy.

None- regardless of age- can or will be redeemed who will not receive Christ's gift of mercy and grace.  Christ himself stood as a proxy for us, taking upon our sins.

Save that we accept his atoning sacrifice, there is no rite, no process, no means by which we can be saved.

In point of fact, one can only be saved by proxy, by obedience, and by faith.

Going back to your overall question however: It is possible that someone who is not a temple-worthy Mormon, who died above the age of eight, and who was not subject to proxy baptism will be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom.

But the circumstances would be so rare and unusual that it would be easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle.

[David T]

rpn, on 22 April 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Interesting her description of the rooms.  Is that the way they do it in all the small temples?

That's how they're doing it in all the new temples, including those being renovated. Going 'back' to a form of Salt-Lake-progressive-style! (Creation, Garden, and Telestial/World sequences all together in one beautifully mural-ed World room, followed by a physical move into the Terrestrial Room, and then, as always, a Celestial Room). I love it.

Edited by David T, 22 April 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[bluebell]

Law22, on 22 April 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Bluebell and Selek1 -

(instead of hitting the quote button I just addressed the post to you two - I'll figure it out in time I hope.)

While I do appreciate everything you say in response to my post, I am left feeling a bit . . . unenlightened.

Let me ask this: Do you believe that if a person is not a temple worthy Mormon, and they die after they are eight years old, and they are not the subject of post-mortem proxy, they cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom and will therefore never meet God or Jesus?

LDS believe that EVERYONE will be the subject of post-mortem proxy ordinances, if they never got the chance in mortality.

But, I think this question illustrates the difference between how you appear to view baptism and how LDS view it.  

LDS believe that whether or not someone get's to 'meet' Jesus or God is not based on which church has their records.  Baptism is about becoming an adopted son or daughter of Jesus through covenant-making, and thus becoming joint-heirs with Him, enabled to gain all that the Father has.  It is about going through the narrow gate (spoken of in scriptures), which LDS believe is the only way to get onto the path which leads to eternal life.

So, can someone gain eternal life without getting on the path that leads to it?  No, LDS don't believe that they can.

Do you believe that someone can gain eternal life without doing what Christ has said must be done to gain it?

[Pahoran]

Law22, on 22 April 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Bluebell and Selek1 -

(instead of hitting the quote button I just addressed the post to you two - I'll figure it out in time I hope.)

While I do appreciate everything you say in response to my post, I am left feeling a bit . . . unenlightened.

Let me ask this: Do you believe that if a person is not a temple worthy Mormon, and they die after they are eight years old, and they are not the subject of post-mortem proxy, they cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom and will therefore never meet God or Jesus?

btw, I've heard non-Mormons characterized as lost, fallen, and sinful, but  "beastial?"  

Welcome to the forum, Law22.

Selek was, of course, talking with tongue in cheek; I should have thought that was obvious.

Others have already addressed your questions, so I'd like to follow up with a question of my own: what, if anything, do you believe needs to happen for a mortal to receive salvation?

You see, we've seen more than our share of what I call "Hermit Crab" posters: people who merrily pick and jab at LDS teachings (or their perceptions thereof) while carefully keeping the vulnerabilities of their own faith positions carefully concealed.  So my question is asked in the interests of full disclosure and a level playing field.

Regards,
Pahoran

[selek1]

As stated above, the LDS people and the Mormon faith are not interested in condemning those who seek Christ- but rather we invite all men (and women, too) to join us on a path that will ultimately lead them to know the Savior, and to become joint heirs with him.

The Episcopal minister mentioned in the OP gets that.  And while she does not agree with our theology or practice, she can at least see how it might be of value to sincere disciples of Christ.

Unfortunately, there far too many who adopt the legalistic, checklist mindset of the teacher in the following video.

They have lost sight of the beauty of the Gospel, and of the unfathomable gift which they have been offered.

Ultimately, Christ will welcome all who are humble, penitent, and who truly, genuinely seek after him- for all such will reconcile themselves to his Gospel and his Grace.

[Buzzard]

How did a nice warm, fuzzy thread like this one devolve so? I guess if you can't start your own provocative thread due to your newbieness, just hijack one, no matter how seemingly unrelated.
But it was a nice article.

[calmoriah]

David T, on 22 April 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

That's how they're doing it in all the new temples, including those being renovated. Going 'back' to a form of Salt-Lake-progressive-style! (Creation, Garden, and Telestial/World sequences all together in one beautifully mural-ed World room, followed by a physical move into the Terrestrial Room, and then, as always, a Celestial Room). I love it.

I experienced this first in the Cardston temple, moving up around the core of the temple on staircases.  It makes the experience more meaningful between the symbolism of rising up through the kingdoms as well as the different surroundings creating a different mood...plus gives my legs a nice break from sitting.

Edited by calmoriah, 22 April 2012 - 10:29 PM.

[Robert F. Smith]

Law22, on 22 April 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

If a non-Mormon can find God in a Mormon temple, can a Mormon find God in a non-Mormon church?

I have found God very much present in the orthodox synagogues I have attended.

[why me]

Law22, on 22 April 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

If a non-Mormon can find God in a Mormon temple, can a Mormon find God in a non-Mormon church?

Yes. Many times when I am sitting inside a catholic church, I feel the pressence of god. At times I have thought of it as the holy spirit resting there. I don't believe that mormons believe that god can only be felt in their meetings. God's pressence can be found among the holy and he dwells in holy places.

[why me]

Buzzard, on 22 April 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

How did a nice warm, fuzzy thread like this one devolve so? I guess if you can't start your own provocative thread due to your newbieness, just hijack one, no matter how seemingly unrelated.
But it was a nice article.

I think that we are back on track now.Difficult to stir up the troops when the troops are finding god in holy places and not just in the temple or in a lds meeting. Mormons are very tolerant of other faiths, regardless of what critics and exmembers may think.

[Anakin7]

altersteve, on 22 April 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

Absolutely.

Amen To That !.

In His Debt/Grace
Anakin7
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[cinepro]

Robert F. Smith, on 23 April 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

I have found God very much present in the orthodox synagogues I have attended.

I'm curious if other LDS think there are any religions that won't feel God's presence?  Do non-Christian religions?  Can Pagans or Druids?  If a group of atheists got together to do community service (such as planting trees or working at a soup kitchen), could they feel God's spirit?

[Saints Alive]

I think feeling God's presence is more about the mindset and motivations of the individual than the location or building they are in.

[Buzzard]

cinepro, on 23 April 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

I'm curious if other LDS think there are any religions that won't feel God's presence?  Do non-Christian religions?  Can Pagans or Druids?  If a group of atheists got together to do community service (such as planting trees or working at a soup kitchen), could they feel God's spirit?

I think that there are some belief systems that if they felt the spirit, they would not recognize/acknowledge their experience thusly.

[cinepro]

Buzzard, on 23 April 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

I think that there are some belief systems that if they felt the spirit, they would not recognize/acknowledge their experience thusly.

Even so, this line of thought is interesting in that there seem to be members of churches (including LDS) who attend services and "feel the spirit" and then attribute specific meanings about the "truth" of their church based on this experience.  But I'm not sure we all agree on what "the spirit" actually means in this context.

I can understand other Christians feeling "the spirit", as it would make sense for God to want to encourage people in a line of worship that acknowledges Jesus and the atonement.

But why would God send The Holy Ghost to a meeting of Scientologists?  Or Druids?  Where do we draw the line?  Would God ever send His Spirit to a Tony Robbins seminar?

Edited by cinepro, 23 April 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[altersteve]

cinepro, on 23 April 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

I'm curious if other LDS think there are any religions that won't feel God's presence?  Do non-Christian religions?  Can Pagans or Druids?  If a group of atheists got together to do community service (such as planting trees or working at a soup kitchen), could they feel God's spirit?

Anyone can feel God's Spirit, whether they recognize it or not.

[ERMD]

Law22, on 22 April 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Thank you so much for the link but I've read it.

You're obviously not really looking for answers to your "questions" but rather trolling to make a point.

[Law22]

Pahoran, on 22 April 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

Welcome to the forum, Law22.

Selek was, of course, talking with tongue in cheek; I should have thought that was obvious.

Others have already addressed your questions, so I'd like to follow up with a question of my own: what, if anything, do you believe needs to happen for a mortal to receive salvation?

You see, we've seen more than our share of what I call "Hermit Crab" posters: people who merrily pick and jab at LDS teachings (or their perceptions thereof) while carefully keeping the vulnerabilities of their own faith positions carefully concealed.  So my question is asked in the interests of full disclosure and a level playing field.

Regards,
Pahoran

Thank you for the welcoming post! Yes, I did assume the "beast" reference was in jest. Hence the smiley face.

I have been involved in a couple different churches over the years, to include the LDS church. Although I suppose the jury is still out, or maybe out once again, concerning my own beliefs, I do believe in Christ as my savior, and that salvation is born solely of His grace. I attend a non-denominational church every Sunday. I am not at all interested in being a hermit crab, but do look forward to further discussions here. To that end, I would admit that I sometimes tend toward the blunt, but honestly mean no offense. I am perfectly comfortable in my faith, and yours, and welcome your guidance and constructive criticisms as I come to understand the nature and purpose of this board.