178 replies to this topic

[smac97]

Mercyngrace,

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Okay, I rewatched the video and it is completely supportive of the church's position so I don't see what your issue is.

Okay.

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Those who reference the church do not disparage the church's position.

I know.  They don't address the church's position.  At all.  Nor do they encourage LDS kids with SSA to adhere to the precepts of the Restored Gospel.  At all.  Hence the ambiguity of the vid's message.

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They are talking about themselves, as members, not understanding and condemning others for having SSA. They don't even mention acting or living as a homosexual, just "being" gay.

I know they don't.  That's sort of the problem.  They ignore the elephant in the room, the issue which LDS with SSA face: Should they live according to the precepts of the Restored Gospel, or not?

The vid participants state that "There are people out there, there are allies within the Mormon Church" (3:24) and that "I'm learning how to be the best ally, the best advocate that I can be for you." (3:37).

If these people are are "allies" with people with SSA, against whom are they "allied?"  Presumably against people who have uncharitable views toward people with SSA, right?  But is it possible that a viwer could come away with the impression that the vid participants are aligning themselves against the precepts of the Restored Gospel which prohibit homosexual behavior?

Another vid participant assures the intended audience, LDS with SSA, that "society is moving in your direction."  (5:30).  What does that mean?  Society as a whole is moving toward the endorsement of homosexuality in all respects.  The orientation.  The "lifestyle."  The behavior.  

So might a young Latter-day Saint view the vid and come away with the impression that these folks are hoping that the LDS Church will follow "society" toward the acceptance and endorsement of homosexual behavior?  Frankly, I think that is possible.  In fact, I think that is the likely outcome.  In fact, I think it is intended outcome.

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How is this contrary to the church's position, smac?

See above.

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Even John Dehlin's comment that "society is moving in your direction" doesn't necessarily imply an acceptance of homosexual activity

Oh, I agree with you there.  I agree that it doesn't "necessarily" imply such a thing.  But I certainly think is "possibly" implies such a thing.  On balance, I think that implication is intentional.  But whether it is intentional or not, the ambiguity itself is troubling because it muddies the waters for young LDS dealing with SSA.  

What is Dehlin telling them to do?  Stay true to the principles of the Church?  It's hard to say, because the vid is utterly silent on this point, right?  

Why on earth does the vid elide on past such an important issue?  Is it because Dehlin is implicity advising young LDS with SSA to ignore those principles because "society is moving in your direction," such that those principles will be abandoned in the future and people with SSA will be at liberty to engage in homosexual behavior?

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but an acceptance of those who view themselves as "gay".

Okay.  But what are the parameters of that acceptance?  Is Dehlin hinting that the LDS Church will alter its doctrines to allow/embrace/endorse homosexual behavior?

Moreover, if the message of the vid is utterly benign (I'm certainly willing to consider that as a possibility), then what's the point of the vid?  If the vid mirrors the LDS Church's stance, why not say so?  Why not acknowledge the Church's stance?  Why create an ambiguous message that, if misconstrued, could lead vulnerable young Latter-day Saints into erroneously concluding that "acceptance" of SSA includes - or should include - acceptance of homosexual behavior?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97, 23 April 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[smac97]

mercyngrace, on 23 April 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Smac - I don't know what your motives are. I should not have said you have an agenda - that wasn't what I meant, I retract it.

I am concerned about the ambiguity in the vid.  I want to discuss it.

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What I meant was more clearly expressed after that when I stated that you are seeing/looking for subtext that isn't there.

Well, reasonable minds can disagree about that, I think.  Even you admit that "Even John Dehlin's comment that 'society is moving in your direction' doesn't necessarily imply an acceptance of homosexual activity..."  Your concession shows that the implication I have suggested is not out-of-bounds.

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Which is what you asked for in the OP. However, since commentary on the church's position is absent in the video, and the video addresses individual (family and friend) responses to gay folks, making this video about the church seems agenda driven.

How 'bout you discuss the topic rather than speculate about my "agenda?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[David T]

smac97, on 23 April 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Moreover, if the message of the vid is utterly benign (I'm certainly willing to consider that as a possibility), then what's the point of the vid?

To express to gay Mormons that are suffering that there are indeed those in their community who love them as they are, that things can get better for them, and above all, "don't check out" - don't kill yourself.

[smac97]

Jaybear, on 23 April 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

Message subtext:  Life gets better, because there are people who love you and will accept you, unconditionally, no matter whether you choose to remain a celibate Mormon, or leave the LDS Church.

Well, as one guy recently put it, "If you want to look for subtext, you can imagine any thing you wish."

But assuming you are correct, is this the best message to convey to young Latter-day Saints?  Shouldn't we express our love for these folks and encourage them to live by the precepts of the Restored Gospel?  Or is the Restored Gospel just a pesky thing to be shunted aside when it requires us to do something difficult (such as resist certain impulses of the flesh)?

We all know you place no value on the Restored Gospel, but Mormons do.  Or should.

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Obviously, not all parents are a kind, loving and accepting as the ones depicted on the video.  So perhaps the message should have been "It gets better, for some of you."

How does it get better?  Through living the Restored Gospel?  Or not?

We all agree that Latter-day Saints with SSA should be shown love and compassion.  That point is not in dispute.  The question is whether we should encourage Latter-day Saints with SSA to continue to live the standards of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your position on this point is clear.  So is mine.  The position on this point as taken by the vid participants, however, is not clear.  Hence this thread.

Thanks,

-Smac

[David T]

smac97, on 23 April 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

But assuming you are correct, is this the best message to convey to young Latter-day Saints?  

If the immediate goal is to stop those considering suicide from carrying it out? YES!

[mercyngrace]

Smac -

I know you don't see it this way but my comments have been directed at the content of the video. Yours have been directed at what you perceive may be subtext.

The video was not made as a missionary tool. It wasn't designed to call people to repentance. It's sole purpose was to offer love and support for those who feel they aren't loved or who feel their lives aren't worth living.

Do you feel that message is inconsistent with the teachings of Christ or the church? Why or why not?

It's evident that we are watching the video very differently and that we differ on the relevance of my comments. It's your thread so I'll bow out as to avoid introducing a spirit of contention.

Peace,
MnG

[smac97]

David T, on 23 April 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

To express to gay Mormons that are suffering that there are indeed those in their community who love them as they are, that things can get better for them, and above all, "don't check out" - don't kill yourself.

Right.  I get that.  My question is this: How does life "get better?"  The vid participants don't say.  They don't explain that life "gets better" by adhering to the principles of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Nor do they say that life "gets better" by disregarding those principles and engaging in homosexual behavior.  

Why is the vid so vague on this point?  Why not be crystal clear?  "We love you.  Don't check out.  Don't kill yourself.  Keep the faith.  Obey the commandments, no matter how difficult."?  Why instead leave viewers with an ambiguous message of encouragement?  Encouragement to do what (besides abstain from suicide)?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

David T, on 23 April 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

If the immediate goal is to stop those considering suicide from carrying it out? YES!

Shouldn't we express our love for these folks and encourage them to live by the precepts of the Restored Gospel? Or is the Restored Gospel just a pesky thing to be shunted aside when it requires us to do something difficult (such as resist certain impulses of the flesh)?

Thanks,

-Smac

[mercyngrace]

ahh cr@p - I have to offer one last comment because of this:

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But assuming you are correct, is this the best message to convey to young Latter-day Saints? Shouldn't we express our love for these folksand encourage them to live by the precepts of the Restored Gospel? Or is the Restored Gospel just a pesky thing to be shunted aside when it requires us to do something difficult (such as resist certain impulses of the flesh)?

We all know you place no value on the Restored Gospel, but Mormons do. Or should.

Do you remember Bishop Burton's talk a couple of GC's back when the GC was focused on the Welfare program?  He shared the following story:

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In 1897 a young David O. McKay stood at a door with a tract in his hand. As a missionary in Stirling, Scotland, he had done this many times before. But on that day a very haggard woman opened the door and stood before him. She was poorly dressed and had sunken cheeks and unkempt hair.

She took the tract Elder McKay offered to her and spoke six words that he subsequently would never forget: “Will this buy me any bread?”

This encounter left a lasting impression on the young missionary. He later wrote: “From that moment I had a deeper realization that the Church ofChrist should be and is interested in the temporal salvation of man. I walked away from the door feeling that that [woman], with … bitterness in [her heart] toward man and God, [was] in no position to receive the message of the gospel. [She was] in need of temporal help, and there was no organization, so far as I could learn, in Stirling that could give it to [her].”¹

There is an immediate need that has to be addressed in this community. The "bread" being offered in this video is that there is hope, that gay people have worth and are lovable regardless of their inclinations/choices/sins.

It's not a compromise of standards to feed that need so that the gospel can subsequently be received as it ought, just as Elder McKay realized that a starving Scot needed food before the restored gospel would matter to her.

[David T]

smac97, on 23 April 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Shouldn't we express our love for these folks and encourage them to live by the precepts of the Restored Gospel? Or is the Restored Gospel just a pesky thing to be shunted aside when it requires us to do something difficult (such as resist certain impulses of the flesh)?

Thanks,

-Smac

The video isn't a misionary tool, or Church production. It's part of a series designed as outreach for LGBT individuals who have lost their sense of self-worth, and feel that people don't love or care about them anymore, and that suicide is the only way to go. It's to get them to wake up the next morning. THEN other steps can be taken. This isn't the end. It's a beginning. It's a twig of hope, encouragement, and love. It's not to tell them what they should do better than they're doing now.

Edited by David T, 23 April 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[smac97]

mercyngrace, on 23 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Smac -

I know you don't see it this way but my comments have been directed at the content of the video. Yours have been directed at what you perceive may be subtext.

No, not entirely.  I am trying to understand the message of the vid, which I think is ambiguous.  What is the message of the vid as relating to young Latter-day Saints, SSA, and the Restored Gospel?  

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The video was not made as a missionary tool. It wasn't designed to call people to repentance. It's sole purpose was to offer love and support for those who feel they aren't loved or who feel their lives aren't worth living.

I get that.  And the message of "it gets better" is certainly an encouraging one.  But how does life "get better" for young Latter-day Saints with SSA?  What are they supposed to do relative to the Restored Gospel, which prohibits them from acting on same-sex impulses?  This is rather an important point, and one that the vid does not address (or only implicitly addresses - see Dehlin's comments).

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Do you feel that message is inconsistent with the teachings of Christ or the church? Why or why not?

As I have said many times now: I think the message is ambiguous.  

How does life "get better" for Latter-day Saints with same-sex attraction? By resisting SSA, obeying the commandments as taught by the Church, and hoping that the membership of the Church will love and support you in such an effort? Or by accepting it as "who you are," beginning to act in ways which break the commandments, and hoping that the Church will change its doctrines by embracing and endorsing same-sex behavior?

Are these people trying to convey a message like this: "Some people in the Church lack charity for people like you, but know that we love you, and God loves you. Obeying the precepts of the Church, particularly as regarding marriage and the Law of Chastity, will be difficult for you. Know that we will be here to love and support you as you cope with this difficulty."

Or is the message something like this: "Some people in the Church lack charity for people like you, including leaders who refuse to alter the doctrines of the Church to endorse and embrace the full ambit of same-sex attraction, including allowing Latter-day Saints to engage in same-sex behavior. We hope the Church will make this change. Meanwhile, know that we love you, and God loves you, even if other church members don't."

I like the first message, but not the second.  The first one is consistent with the teachings of Christ and His Church, the second is not.

And the ambiguity of the vid allows for the viewer to come away with either one.  That is what I find troubling.

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It's evident that we are watching the video very differently and that we differ on the relevance of my comments. It's your thread so I'll bow out as to avoid introducing a spirit of contention.

As you like.  I didn't find you particularly contentious (though my contention-meter is probably out of whack given my line of work).

Thanks,

-Smac

[Jaybear]

smac97, on 23 April 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Shouldn't we express our love for these folks and encourage them to live by the precepts of the Restored Gospel? Or is the Restored Gospel just a pesky thing to be shunted aside when it requires us to do something difficult (such as resist certain impulses of the flesh)?

It seems to me that there are plenty of messages "encouraging them to live by the precepts of the Restored Gospel?"  

To do so here, would undermine the message that you are loved, unconditionally ... meaning obviously, even if you choose to accept and embrace your homosexuality.

[smac97]

David T, on 23 April 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

The video isn't a misionary tool, or Church production. It's part of a series designed as outreach for LGBT individuals who have lost their sense of self-worth, and feel that people don't love or care about them anymore, and that suicide is the only way to go. It's to get them to wake up the next morning. THEN other steps can be taken. This isn't the end. It's a beginning. It's a twig of hope, encouragement, and love. It's not to tell them what they should do better than they're doing now.

David,

Some good thoughts.  Thanks.

-Smac

[smac97]

Jaybear, on 23 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

It seems to me that there are plenty of messages "encouraging them to live by the precepts of the Restored Gospel?"  

To do so here, would undermine the message that you are loved, unconditionally ... meaning obviously, even if you choose to accept and embrace your homosexuality.

Really?  Encouraging someone to obey God is at odds with a message of unconditional love?

Wow.  We really see the world in different ways.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Jaybear]

smac97, on 23 April 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

Really?  Encouraging someone to obey God is at odds with a message of unconditional love?

I didn't say "at odds," I say it "undermines" the message.  Perhaps an even better word would be "detracts" from the main message.

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Wow.  We really see the world in different ways.

If you would address what I actually say, rather than what you imagine I meant,  the difference is likely not all that wide.

[calmoriah]

mercyngrace, on 23 April 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

Perhaps experiencing our love will help others move toward God more than experiencing our judgment.

However, some judgment must be undertaken if we are to judge what is the best way to help others.  Loving someone isn't always enough.

Condemning someone is inappropriate, but ignoring that some actions are sinful can be harmful for all involved.

edit:  off topic, perhaps another thread....

Edited by calmoriah, 23 April 2012 - 10:00 AM.

[calmoriah]

Perhaps it would have been helpful to have included something along the lines of pointing out what the next step might be.

It is important to address the immediate need, but once that is addressed, once that individual in the case of the video survives to the next morning, what is he to do then?  Being at a loss of what the next step might be can lead to hopelessness in and of itself.

It doesn't have to the central message of the vid, but I think some indication of a 'next move' would be useful and could remove the ambiguity that concerns Smac.

I also think the term "allies" is troubling as it implies that this is a contest or even a fight.  It seems problematic to me that on the one hand it is being taught to be completely open and supportive of others no matter what and on the other, pointing to those who currently disagree as people who need to be resisted or overcome rather than loved and accepted in supported in their difficulties as well.

[smac97]

calmoriah, on 23 April 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Perhaps it would have been helpful to have included something along the lines of pointing out what the next step might be.

It is important to address the immediate need, but once that is addressed, once that individual in the case of the video survives to the next morning, what is he to do then?  Being at a loss of what the next step might be can lead to hopelessness in and of itself.

I agree.  If the vid is construed as a "talk 'em down off the ledge" kind of thing, then fine.  But I got the impression that the vid has more in mind that an exhortation to not commit suicide.

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It doesn't have to the central message of the vid, but I think some indication of a 'next move' would be useful and could remove the ambiguity that concerns Smac.

Yep.  I wonder whether the despair felt by some Latter-day Saints with SSA stems exclusively from a feeling that nobody loves them, but that it also stems from the profound incompatibility between innately-held impulses and the precepts of the Restored Gospel.  This incompatibility becomes particularly hard to deal with when virtually every other voice in the world (other than the LDS Church and its members) is telling them that acting on those impulses is fine and dandy.

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I also think the term "allies" is troubling as it implies that this is a contest or even a fight.

Well, it is a fight.  The question is the identification of the contestants.  Are Latter-day Saints with SSA arrayed in battle against A) their own impulses which, according to the precepts of the Restored Gospel, cannot be acted upon, or B) the LDS Church and its teachings proscribing homosexual conduct?

Whom, according to the vid participants, is the adversary?  I dunno.  The vid is ambiguous.  And the ambiguity itself is a bit troubling.

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It seems problematic to me that on the one hand it is being taught to be completely open and supportive of others no matter what and on the other, pointing to those who currently disagree as people who need to be resisted or overcome rather than loved and accepted in supported in their difficulties as well.

Yep.

-Smac

[Valentinus]

I agree with Smac that the HOW it gets better is ambiguous. I also agree that it should have been more clear about its motive so as not to allow for the intent of the vid to be misconstrued. Speculation on the ambiguous intent is also problematic because it serves as a means to create mountains out of mole hills. If someone is concerned as to the intent then perhaps they should contact the vid creator and/or participants and simply ask.

There is no need for the vid to be used as a missional tool to advocate "sinful behavior" nor to be used to further promote the LDS church position. I don't see the vid as needing to be about the church or the Restored Gospel according to the LDS church.

You are loved unconditionally by a merciful God who transcends earthly vessels. Don't give up. Persevere and endure.

[Jaybear]

Valentinus, on 23 April 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

I agree with Smac that the HOW it gets better is ambiguous. I also agree that it should have been more clear about its motive so as not to allow for the intent of the vid to be misconstrued. Speculation on the ambiguous intent is also problematic because it serves as a means to create mountains out of mole hills. If someone is concerned as to the intent then perhaps they should contact the vid creator and/or participants and simply ask.

There is no need for the vid to be used as a missional tool to advocate "sinful behavior" nor to be used to further promote the LDS church position. I don't see the vid as needing to be about the church or the Restored Gospel according to the LDS church.

You are loved unconditionally by a merciful God who transcends earthly vessels. Don't give up.

There is no ambiguity.

How does it get better.  It gets better because you have family and friend that love you, and will accept you  ...   just as we have.  

It is evident from the video that this unconditional love and acceptance is directed even to those who chose not to live their life as a celibate gay Mormon.  

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Persevere and endure.

I can see why you weren't invited to participate in the video.

Edited by Jaybear, 23 April 2012 - 11:07 AM.