95 replies to this topic

[T-Shirt]

Darth_Bill, on 20 April 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

And T-Shirt is your real name?

Mine actually is Darth Bill.

First of all, I do not consistently mock the Church and its leaders on the internet while boasting the fact that I hold a Temple Recommend and a calling.

Second, if you go to my profile, you will find my real name, my birthday and where I live.  I have nothing to hide.

[Pa Pa]

T-Shirt, on 23 April 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

First of all, I do not consistently mock the Church and its leaders on the internet while boasting the fact that I hold a Temple Recommend and a calling.

Second, if you go to my profile, you will find my real name, my birthday and where I live.  I have nothing to hide.

The quote you are responding too, your comments don't match??? Did I miss something?

[Valentinus]

Pa Pa, on 20 April 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

I had the privilege of seeing live the last Conference talk of Elder Bruce R McConkie. It was one of the greatest sermons I have ever heard. Even though he said things (that btw he mellowed on and moderated later in life) that upset some, he has become a favorite whipping buy non-Mormons and Mormons alike. Elder Packer has been through the same. Some have even saddled Joseph Fielding McConkie with the perceived errors of his father. Too much in academia, scripture is no longer quoted with authority (or as the final authority in an effort to seek the ‘praise of the world’. (Granted this is my opinion but I am not alone.

When do you go too far?
When are they allowed to have opinions like others without worrying about being PC?
Also, do we have the right to make apologies for what these men say when others mock?  

As for Bruce R…I loved the guy. I once received a blessing at the hands of Paul H Dunn and I love him and I make no apologies. As I try to remind many…God works with flawed men because that is all he has to work with.

The only difference between them and us, is we don’t have people hanging off every word we speak, or seeking to exploit our words.

Again where is the line for those of us who promise not to speak evil of these men every time we enter the Temple?

I have my disagreements with some of the leadership of the church. I don't believe that is grounds to speak ill of them. I have to remind myself constantly that they are just men doing the best they can with the best they've got. The people and the church are imperfect and will always fall subject to humanity and its flaws.

[TruthSeeker24]

My personal view on the matter:

If you have ANY opinion or view that runs contrary to what the Lord's anointed people are teaching, do not express it in any way, shape, or form. Keep it to yourself. Even in these forums.

[shalamabobbi]

T-Shirt, on 20 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

If you want to see a good example of "Evil speaking of the Lord's anointed", check out Cinepro's blog.  He doesn't have the guts to publish it under his real name.

His real name is Yoda..

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

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If you have ANY opinion or view that runs contrary to what the Lord's anointed people are teaching, do not express it in any way, shape, or form. Keep it to yourself. Even in these forums.

Hmm. Nah.

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"I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammelled." -- Joseph Smith

Quote

"What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually. [...] Brother Joseph W. Young remarked this morning that he wished the people to receive the word of the Lord through his servants, be dictated by them, and have no will of their own. I would express it in this wise: God has placed within us a will, and we should be satisfied to have it controlled by the will of the Almighty. Let the human will be indomitable for right." -- Brigham Young

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"Because of [...] the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked, -- to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, [...] that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood.

We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, [even] if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men.

Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." -- Millenial Star, 1852

Edited by JeremyOrbe-Smith, 23 April 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[TruthSeeker24]

JeremyOrbe-Smith, on 23 April 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

Hmm. Nah.

I agree with those statements. I'm not implying that having contrary views is out of order with the Gospel, only that expressing them to others is out of order.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

That seems like slavery in the extreme, to me. What good can our thoughts do if we're not allowed to speak them?

Quote

"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied [...] Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord. [...]

Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer." -- Brigham Young

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"Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone." -- George Q. Cannon

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"If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak." -- George A. Smith

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"I have said these things because I fear dictatorial dogmatism, rigidity of procedure and intolerance [in the Church] even more than I fear cigarettes, cards, and other devices the adversary may use to nullify faith and kill religion. Fanaticism and bigotry have been the deadly enemies of true religion in the long past. They have made it forbidding, shut it up in cold grey walls of monastery and nunnery, out of sunlight and fragrance of the growing world. They have garbed it in black and then in white, when in truth it is neither black nor white, any more than life is black or white, for religion is life abundant, glowing life, with all its shades, colors and hues, as the children of men reflect in the patterns of their lives the radiance of the Holy Spirit in varying degrees." -- President Stephen L. Richards

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"More thinking is required, and we should all exercise our God-given right to think and be unafraid to express our opinions, with proper respect for those to whom we talk and proper acknowledgment of our own shortcomings. We must preserve freedom of the mind in the Church and resist all efforts to suppress it.

The Church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts. One may memorize much without learning anything. In this age of speed there seems to be little time for meditation.

And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile; then one's logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his or her spirit, because real conversion must come from within." -- President Hugh B. Brown

Edited by JeremyOrbe-Smith, 23 April 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[shalamabobbi]

TruthSeeker24, on 23 April 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

I agree with those statements. I'm not implying that having contrary views is out of order with the Gospel, only that expressing them to others is out of order.

Yes motivation makes all the difference, doesn't it?

That's generally how we behave at church. This is the internet. Here you find the existence of everything under the sun. Forums for ex-mos, or LDS.org - and everything in between.

If this forum were set up with those rules in mind I imagine that is how this forum would be run. Apparently those who run the forum don't have that as an objective for participation.

It's nice to be able to have the liberty to talk and discuss issues with other believers don't you think?

Also ideas presented here are resources useful in understanding and helping to fellowship those who have wandered away from church. I know that there are plenty of those in the High Priest's Group in my ward.

[TruthSeeker24]

I can understand where your coming from. However, under those circumstances, unity is impossible. And unity is what we're SUPPOSEDLY striving for.

[calmoriah]

Enforced unity is not godly unity.

True unity, not just unity in appearance due to never speaking of our disagreements, can only come if we talk about our differences and resolve them.

[LDSToronto]

TruthSeeker24, on 23 April 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

I agree with those statements. I'm not implying that having contrary views is out of order with the Gospel, only that expressing them to others is out of order.

Why?

[TruthSeeker24]

LDSToronto, on 23 April 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Why?

Plainly put, it's none of our business to contradict the prophets. And it is a huge hindrance to creating unity. The world has always cried "Diversity, Diversity, Diversity," but Mormonism has always cried, "Unity, Unity, Unity." Unity is what we seek after, and constant oppositions made in open discussion spark diversity and eliminate unity.

[TruthSeeker24]

calmoriah, on 23 April 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Enforced unity is not godly unity.

True unity, not just unity in appearance due to never speaking of our disagreements, can only come if we talk about our differences and resolve them.

Let's be realistic, we will never solve our different views. We're to human. That's why it becomes paramount to obeying the prophets.

Edited by TruthSeeker24, 23 April 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[LDSToronto]

TruthSeeker24, on 23 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Plainly put, it's none of our business to contradict the prophets. And it is a huge hindrance to creating unity. The world has always cried "Diversity, Diversity, Diversity," but Mormonism has always cried, "Unity, Unity, Unity." Unity is what we seek after, and constant oppositions made in open discussion spark diversity and eliminate unity.

Following an external voice, whether it be a prophet, president, or god, means you had best learn to question.

And "diversity" is not the opposite of "unity". Checkout the profiles over on "I Am A Mormon". The Church is in love with diversity right now.

H.

[Senator]

TruthSeeker24, on 23 April 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

My personal view on the matter:

If you have ANY opinion or view that runs contrary to what the Lord's anointed people are teaching, do not express it in any way, shape, or form. Keep it to yourself. Even in these forums.

How very totalitarian.

However, given other views that you've espoused, I applaude you for your consistency.

[jwhitlock]

TruthSeeker24, on 23 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Plainly put, it's none of our business to contradict the prophets. And it is a huge hindrance to creating unity. The world has always cried "Diversity, Diversity, Diversity," but Mormonism has always cried, "Unity, Unity, Unity." Unity is what we seek after, and constant oppositions made in open discussion spark diversity and eliminate unity.

Unity is defined as being of one heart and mind.  It is not defined as being obedient to leaders.

[mfbukowski]

TruthSeeker24, on 23 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Plainly put, it's none of our business to contradict the prophets. And it is a huge hindrance to creating unity. The world has always cried "Diversity, Diversity, Diversity," but Mormonism has always cried, "Unity, Unity, Unity." Unity is what we seek after, and constant oppositions made in open discussion spark diversity and eliminate unity.

So why are you disagreeing with others here on the forum?

Seems inconsistent to me.  By your own logic, you should not be posting.

[Valentinus]

Truthseeker:

Dissent is the freedom to exercise conscience. Believe and obey is ridiculous. Conformity through coercion is an act of violence. You may want to rethink your idolatrous ideas. The GAs are not above criticism because they are like the rest of the world...only human. Not everything coming out of SLC is inspired.

[Cobalt-70]

Evil speaking: This phrase comes from Titus 3:2 ("To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men") and James 4:11 ("Speak not evil one to another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.")

The Greek word in Titus is βλασφημειν, which means "blaspheme." The Greek word in James is καταλαλεῖτε, which means "slander." John Wesley, whose ideas influenced Joseph Smith, considered "speaking evil" to mean "backbiting." http://new.gbgm-umc....ley/sermons/49/ In none of these senses is there an issue with honest disagreements, or even heated discussion.

Lord's anointed: It seems out of character for Joseph Smith to have required everybody who participated in the Nauvoo Endowment to enter a covenant that protected only himself. Plus, although he was anointed Earthly King in 1844, I am not aware of any example in which Smith referred to himself as the "Lord's Anointed."

Circa 1842, when the Nauvoo Endowment ceremony was created, men and women who received their Endowment were admitted to what is called the Anointed Quorum. This quorum was the central spiritual body of the church. It seems reasonable that agreeing not to "speak evil" of the "Lord's anointed" might refer to members of that quorum. After all, in the prayer circles, nobody was supposed to have ill feelings toward anyone else in the circle.

Plus, there was an 1847 exposé on the Endowment ceremony (I won't link to it here) in which the participant said that after the Initiatory, he understood, "I am now said to be the Lord's Annointed [sic.], as in the days of old, when they were annointed [sic.] to the office of King, &c."

Edited by Cobalt-70, 23 April 2012 - 05:14 PM.