The Catholic Herald....Mormons Are Not Christian

[3DOP]

The Catholic faith proposes that baptism is our intitation into the Church and I can understand in what respect a Catholic priest or even a publication needs to be guarded about saying that Mormons are Christian, in light of the fact that our church rejects LDS baptisms. But this article goes much further than being guarded about who is baptized. It claims that "their religion has nothing to do with Christianity". It says that Mormonism "...is not even a Christian heresy."

Most Catholics and Protestants note the differences between themselves and Mormons and see areas of great divergence, especially about the nature of God and human nature. We tell ourselves that Mormons cannot be Christian because they do not resemble us at the most primary stages. But this begs the question. It assumes what Mormons do not concede. IF my faith is apostate, why should I expect that we got the primary stages correct? Mormonism is plausible precisely BECAUSE it is consistent with what I would expect to see if traditional Christianity were false. Why would any non-Catholic (especially congregationalist and community church Protestants, as most Evangelicals tend to be) expect a bunch of bishops in a meeting to be able to define and maintain the difficult doctrines of God perfectly? I see the LDS Restoration, properly understood, together with the Roman Catholic Church, properly understood, as a demand to choose either continuity or restoration. In my view, the Protestant middle ground is untenable. That is why it is important to me to be able to in a truly significant sense define LDS as Christian.

I think the claims of the article are untenable. Mormonism springs from Christianity historically. It uses all of the 66 books of the Protesant canon. Joseph Smith wasn't praying about Scriptures from Hinduism or Islam when he was reportedly visited by God. For those obvious reasons and many more, Mormons have to be considered Christian. Perhaps a good qualifier would be Restoration Christian. There is no way that Catholics are being accurate with their own history by denying the roots of the movement founded by Joseph Smith. To say of Mormons that "their religion has nothing to do with Christianity" is pretty close to saying the Chevrolet Chevette had nothing to do with General Motors. General Motors might wish it to be the case, but that doesn't make it so.

This isn't about political correctness. It is about historical accuracy and lucid dialogue. Once Catholics have explained that there does exist in Catholicism a rigorous doctrinal sense in which only the baptized are Christians, we can proceed to acknowledge how Mormonism became a major Christian religion without resorting to giving offense for no good reason.

3DOP

Edited April 18, 2012 by 3DOP

[Calm]

I have to agree with Jaybear on this point. In talking to other non-LDS about the Mormon faith, they seem to always bring up the point of you all being non-Christian which is a dialogue killer. I choose to use the broad definition of Christian in participating here. I understand both POV so let's move on. Calling my wife's faith non-Christian is a killer in too many ways to count.

So do you see your choice as being "PC" or "effective" for conversation?

[Calm]

Polite/PC.

Since when did the definition of "polite" become equivalent to "politically correct". I know many who are polite with no consideration whatsoever for politics. In fact, the vast majorities of polite conversations I have been involved in have been totally nonpolitical and a significant part of political conversations have not been polite even while involving many "politically correct" statements.

Edited April 18, 2012 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

The article goes much further than saying "Mormons are not Christian". It claims that "their religion has nothing to do with Christianity". It says that "It is not even a Christian heresy."

NOW I am seriously insulted.

Clearly we ARE heretics, since many aspects of our doctrine were part of the ancient church and condemned has heretical.

[Calm]

Effective:

Q: What is the most effective way to communicate your religious beliefs:

A: Wade is a Christian.

B: Wade is a Mormon.

That would depend on what the question is. If the question is, for example, are Mormons Christian or not, answering "Mormons are Mormon" doesn't really convey any info.

[Calm]

This isn't about political correctness. It is about historical accuracy and lucid dialogue. Once Catholics have explained that there does exist in Catholicism a rigorous doctrinal sense in which only the baptized are Christians, we can proceed to acknowledge how Mormonism became a major Christian religion without resorting to giving offense for no good reason. 3DOP

Don't be so reasonable.

[blueadept]

So do you see your choice as being "PC" or "effective" for conversation?

I respect the viewpoint of the LDS members as well as respect the viewpoint of the leaders of my church and I'm not hung up on this issue. I've met many who don't consider Catholics as Christian either and I just internally laugh at the situation. As St Francis would say, "Preach My Gospel Always! When Necessary, Use Words."

I choose not to get hung up on a definition and prefer to let my actions speak for themselves.

My 2 cents

[Calm]

I respect the viewpoint of the LDS members as well as respect the viewpoint of the leaders of my church and I'm not hung up on this issue. I've met many who don't consider Catholics as Christian either and I just internally laugh at the situation. As St Francis would say, "Preach My Gospel Always! When Necessary, Use Words."

I choose not to get hung up on a definition and prefer to let my actions speak for themselves.

My 2 cents

Which to me means your choices are based on effectiveness without concern for "political correctness".

The whole "Catholics are pagan" drama is so very, very ridiculous, in my view.

[Jaybear]

So do you see your choice as being "PC" or "effective" for conversation?

The words are not mutually exclusive. If someone is angry, its hard to "effectively" communicate, as has been my experience here.

[Calm]

The words are not mutually exclusive.

Whether or not they are mutually exclusive says nothing about which is a better description for what blue does. Considering how he takes into serious consideration his religious leaders' positions, it seems to me that political correctness is not a high priority for him and that if his statements are politically correct, it is more of a coincidence than an intended result.

If someone is angry, its hard to "effectively" communicate, as has been my experience here.

What does anger have to do with political correctness or lack of it?

=====

In my experience many who are being politically correct are not very respectful of others' beliefs, they are not only uneducated in others' beliefs, but they have no intention of taking the time to study them before making judgments about such beliefs.

Edited April 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[selek1]

3DOP,

Reference Post #151 above.

Well said, sir!

Bravo Zulu!

[blueadept]

Whether or not they are mutually exclusive says nothing about which is a better description for what blue does.

.....................

it is more of a coincidence than an intended result.

I'm quite sure that participating on this board is definitely the cause of some of my lunacy... . I believe I had the pure intention of understanding the best LDS answers to whatever the topic is.

What this has done is that I normally cringe when I hear or read what some non-LDS may make a statement in regards to the LDS faithful and this includes the RCC leadership. Of course, I cringe just as well when I hear a Catholic try to explain their faith to a Mormon as well.

I'm a friendly critic who believes that he has to correct the OBVIOUS misrepresentations of other non-LDS in regards to Mormonism that he meets in real life.

[wenglund]

Interesting. I asked you for your personal opinion on what you consider the most effective way to communicate your religious belief to a third party, and you accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

We must be living on different planets.

You must be living on the planet called "out of context" since your question was couched as an argument allegedly in contravention to what I had said about "effective." Seemingly, the air is bit to thin where you live, and may explain your persistent confusion and your apparent inability to follow the line of discussion. LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Flyonthewall]

If Catholics say we are not "Christian" because we do not believe the same way about Jesus Christ, being the Son of God and Redeemer of all, then the most they can say is that we are not "Catholic Christians".

Same with any other flavor of Christian belief.

My .02 anyways

[wenglund]

My point is that since you don't consider their baptisms to be valid, nor do you consider them to be members of Christ's Church, seems hypocritical to whine that they don't consider Mormons to be part of their club.

You may have a point if "their club" was Christianity rather than Catholicism. Since it isn't, then you don't--not that this has anything to do with you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Saints Alive]

I used to care when Catholics and other "Christians" would say that Mormons aren't Christian but anymore I just don't care. Don't care to justify my Christianity, faith, or scripture as Christian. Ive come to the realization that no matter what I say I would be just as productive I I were to try to convince a wall that I am Christian. You don't believe I am Christian and I don't believe that your communion wafers are the literal flesh of Christ. Let's forget about labeling each other and just be friends or at least civil to one another.

[mfbukowski]

I'm a friendly critic who believes that he has to correct the OBVIOUS misrepresentations of other non-LDS in regards to Mormonism that he meets in real life.

I have always found you very fair and reasonable, as well as kind.

[why me]

I have always found you very fair and reasonable, as well as kind.

Me too. I am glad that he is back posting here. I have known him from the board a long time and I know his story and why he began to post on what was then MAD or was it the FAIR board at that time? He was searching to understand the faith of someone who was very close to him.

[Uther]

Imo the "Mormons not Christians" is a dead beaten straw man.

[why me]

Imo the "Mormons not Christians" is a dead beaten straw man.

That may be but it is used by people who wish to score points against the lds church and to teach disinformation.

[mfbukowski]

Imo the "Mormons not Christians" is a dead beaten straw man.

I'm beyond caring what they call us. They are the ones who are becoming irrelevant. The term stands for nothing any more- they have no values or standards which are actually observed, nothing to live up to

"Christianity" as a term may die- if it does it will be on them, not us. We will survive because we understand the dignity of man while they harp incessantly on how degraded humanity is. You cannot have a transcendent God who cares about his children. It just doesn't work. If God is a Father, he cannot be a transcendent Platonic being.

Edited April 19, 2012 by mfbukowski