The Catholic Herald....Mormons Are Not Christian

[Calm]

It is not me that developed a stench but the Catholic Herald. What the catholic herald wrote is exactly what harry could do to jim after reading that article.

The negative is more than enough spoken of by its supporters and other than challenging misinformation, I think it is better to spend our time on the positive (and if anyone wants to break out in song, I like this version

)

[why me]

The only difference between these two groups is that Mormons pretend to take great umbrage.

Not exactly. The lds church does not say that catholics and protestants are not christian. And that makes all the difference. Mormons are used to disagreements. Nothing wrong in that. Certainly, protestants do not think that the catholic church is true nor does the catholic church believe that the protestant churches are true. But all would say that there are some degrees of truth. And the mormons say the same. The difference is: catholics do not believe that the mormons are christian. And that makes all the difference.

[why me]

As I said, EVs and Catholics genuinely and sincerely believe that Mormonism leads people away from Christ.

People are and should be entitled to express their express their beliefs.

Then they are ignorant and ignorance is not bliss.

[wenglund]

As I said, EVs and Catholics genuinely and sincerely believe that Mormonism leads people away from Christ. People are and should be entitled to express their express their beliefs.

Is anyone here denying the people are entitled to express their beliefs?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[why me]

The negative is more than enough spoken of by its supporters and other than challenging misinformation, I think it is better to spend our time on the positive (and if anyone wants to break out in song, I like this version

)

I agree Cal. It bothers me to read that article in the catholic herald. Too much negativism and too much misunderstanding in that article. I tried to say that on the catholic site when I was allowed to post there: stress the positive in both faiths and work together to fight against what is actually leading people away from christ.

[blueadept]

It is not me that developed a stench but the Catholic Herald. What the catholic herald wrote is exactly what harry could do to jim after reading that article.

So noted.

Did you expect a European Catholic newspaper to write a positive article in regards to Mitt Romney's LDS faith? I'm thankful that reasonable US Catholic resources haven't commented about Romney's religion. Romney hasn't made it an issue which is a good move IMO.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The article found here:

http://www.catholich...aAoN9366I.email

I want to say upfront, they are entitled to their opinion.

I do not understand why "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" referred to as the Mormon Church in this article, as not being Christian.

What does the church have to do, not necessarily to be accepted, but have those of other religions stop telling us we do not believe in the real Christ.

I have search the scriptures for many years, I have not found one reference to a "holy trinity" or a "triune God" on any page of scripture. In fact I think even the most casual reading of the Holy Bible would indicate that, God the Father worked as one with Jesus Christ and there holy works testified of and verified by the Holy Ghost. Both casual and close reading of the scriptures clearly indicates the closeness and single purpose of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

The very first Article of Faith:

"We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

We believe in a resurrected Jesus Christ with a glorified body of flesh and bone, who is the saviour and redeemer of all mankind and through Him and by Him all will be brought before God to be righteously Judged of Him and the Father.

We only worship this Godhead, we worship no other Gods.

I find almost amusing how many people try with all the might of their heart to tell the world we are not Christian, while not even baring his most sacred and holy name.

I have come to believe that most of these type articles are born or bigotry, and of those with lazy minds. The information about our being Christian is available for all and anyone, who, with an honest and enquiring mind, may not agree with all we believe but will surely come to know, that members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" are truly devout christians, and a people who love and testify of their Saviour Jesus the Christ.

I don't know why we try so hard to have others call us Christian, I don't need their opinions. It is odd however because Catholics get labeled the same, in fact Catholics get a lot of unfair comments, some quite vulgar. In that we have something n common.

[why me]

So noted.

Did you expect a European Catholic newspaper to write a positive article in regards to Mitt Romney's LDS faith? I'm thankful that reasonable US Catholic resources haven't commented about Romney's religion. Romney hasn't made it an issue which is a good move IMO.

But that newspaper's attitude is no different than our cahtolic friends hanging out on the catholic apologetic site claiming the same thing: mormons are not christian and mormons are members of a cult. But they will have problems if Romney becomes president. Hard to say that your president is a member of a cult. After awhile the person making the claim will sound insane.

[Calm]

The difference is: catholics do not believe that the mormons are christian. And that makes all the difference.

Even for Catholics, that depends on how one defines Christian.

Officially how Catholics view LDS is simply that our baptism is not a true sacrament, which is the same that we say of them. That says nothing about how they view our attempts to follow Christ in our every day life, though IIRC it does say something about whether we are members of the Body of Christ while LDS do not believe the lack of a true baptism excludes one from being a member of the Church of the Lamb...but we also view membership in each as something different so equating them to judge either faith as more or less than the other is inappropriate, imo.

We need to note the difference that exists where LDS reject all other baptisms as unauthorized and Catholics accept those that they believe display the correct understanding of God.

As long as members of each faith are clear on what is meant by the rejection of the other's baptism, I do not see what we have to argue about with each other. If LDS viewed the correct baptism as being the defining characteristic of becoming Christian, then we would say the same thing about Catholics since we do not view their baptism as correct. While we don't define it that way and thus do not exclude them from the term Christian as we use it, there is no reason to be troubled by a Catholic's use of the term as long as they limit its usage to how it is defined by their faith since it says nothing about our intent to follow Christ, imo.

(IIRC, have to check the Catechism again for the specific wording, blue can correct if I've missed something)

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission...1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."

http://www.vatican.v...G0015/__P3M.HTM Edited April 17, 2012 by calmoriah

[why me]

I don't know why we try so hard to have others call us Christian, I don't need their opinions. It is odd however because Catholics get labeled the same, in fact Catholics get a lot of unfair comments, some quite vulgar. In that we have something n common.

And that was the point I made with the catholic friends on the catholic apologetic site: The extreme protestants would claim the same about the catholic church: it is not christian and give unfair comments about the pope and catholic beliefs.

[Calm]

I don't know why we try so hard to have others call us Christian, I don't need their opinions. It is odd however because Catholics get labeled the same, in fact Catholics get a lot of unfair comments, some quite vulgar. In that we have something n common.

I would agree, though I do explain to others that I consider myself a Christian and my faith Christian because our intent is to follow Christ and if they deprive me of the label, then I ask them to define what them mean that excludes me...not to attack, but to understand.

My only real problem with this claim is my experience with how it leads those who are not aware of the definitions being used to assume something that is not true about my faith. I think we are better served in these cases to explain the reality rather than spend time protesting the falsehoods beyond noting they exist where necessary for better communication.

[Jaybear]

Not exactly. The lds church does not say that catholics and protestants are not christian.

The LDS Church sends out missionaries who proclaim that that the LDS Church is the one and only true Christian church.

While that may not exactly be the same, from the perspective of someone that is neither Catholic, EV or Mormon, I really don't see a substantive difference.

[altersteve]

Not sure what your point is?

I say Mormons pretend to take umbrage.

You say Mormons don't pretend.

I capitulate ... okay you (Mormons) take umbrage.

Other Mormons might, but I don't.

[why me]

Even for Catholics, that depends on how one defines Christian.

Hi Cal, chew on this for awhile: http://www.catholic....kers/talks/5923 A catholic parish can hire this catholic apologist to speak on exposing mormonism and he will tell the faithful why mormons are not christian. Now imagine if FAIR had the same tactic: hire out Scott to ward firesides to speak on exposing catholicism and to tell the faithful that catholics are not christians and why.

The outrage of catholics would be harsh and severe and rightly so. But...no problem that the catholics are doing it.

Edited April 17, 2012 by why me

[blueadept]

Even for Catholics, that depends on how one defines Christian.

Officially how Catholics view LDS is simply that our baptism is not a true sacrament, which is the same that we say of them. That says nothing about how they view our attempts to follow Christ in our every day life, though IIRC it does say something about whether we are members of the Body of Christ while LDS do not believe the lack of a true baptism excludes one from being a member of the Church of the Lamb...but we also view membership in each as something different so equating them to judge either faith as more or less than the other is inappropriate, imo.

We need to note the difference that exists where LDS reject all other baptisms as unauthorized and Catholics accept those that they believe display the correct understanding of God.

As long as members of each faith are clear on what is meant by the rejection of the other's baptism, I do not see what we have to argue about with each other.

(IIRC, have to check the Catechism again for the specific wording, blue can correct if I've missed something)

As usual, you're all good...

But that newspaper's attitude is no different than our cahtolic friends hanging out on the catholic apologetic site claiming the same thing: mormons are not christian and mormons are members of a cult. But they will have problems if Romney becomes president. Hard to say that your president is a member of a cult. After awhile the person making the claim will sound insane.

I remember taking a Catholic theology class and it was noted that Catholics need to be careful on what they use for resources in defending their faith. He held up a publication that was from Catholic Answers and said that doctrinally, that publication was 'off' in correctly defending the Catholic faith. With my run-ins on that board, I chuckled and tended to agree.

The site has good-intentions but it's off on correct understanding. The problem is that Catholics use that information like it's an authoritive Catholic teaching. IMO, it's like LDS using the book 'Mormon Doctrine' as authoritive teaching. Most of it is good but................

[why me]

The LDS Church sends out missionaries who proclaim that that the LDS Church is the one and only true Christian church.

While that may not exactly be the same, from the perspective of someone that is neither Catholic, EV or Mormon, I really don't see a substantive difference.

Now Jaybear, lets do a reality check: catholcs and protestants have their own missionaries. When they are doing their missionary work do they tell perspective converts that their faith is not true or do they tell their perspective converts that they have the truth and the light?

[Calm]

The outrage of catholics would be harsh and severe and rightly so. But...no problem that the catholics are doing it.

I am not saying ignore any falsehoods being taught, just don't waste emotional energy on being offended, use it to teach the truth.

Point them to their own catechism and ask them if they believe more than this and if so, why. If they are willing to discuss it, both may end up being edified, if they are not, then why waste more time on it?

Edited April 17, 2012 by calmoriah

[blueadept]

Hi Cal, chew on this for awhile: http://www.catholic....kers/talks/5923 A catholic parish can hire this catholic apologist to speak on exposing mormonism and he will tell the faithful why mormons are not christian. Now imagine if FAIR had the same tactic: hire out Scott to ward firesides to speak on exposing catholicism and to tell the faithful that catholics are not christians and why.

The outrage of catholics would be harsh and severe and rightly so. But...no problem that the catholics are doing it.

The only time I'm aware that Catholic Answers ever did such an event, a LDS apologist (member of the seventy I beilieve) was also present. In reading articles about that event, the Catholics that were present were strengthened by what Tim Staples (Catholic Apologist) said and didn't buy what the other side said. The LDS that was present were strengthened by their speaker and didn't buy anything that Tim Staples said.

So the result was a draw.

[Jaybear]

Now Jaybear, lets do a reality check: catholcs and protestants have their own missionaries. When they are doing their missionary work do they tell perspective converts that their faith is not true or do they tell their perspective converts that they have the truth and the light?

Never had a catholic or protestant missionary knock on my door. Tell you what, if that happens, I will them I am Mormon and report back.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, they are not entitled to their own facts.

[blueadept]

Never had a catholic or protestant missionary knock on my door. Tell you what, if that happens, I will them I am Mormon and report back.

In our local door-to-door Catholic efforts, I remember engaging a couple of inactive LDS folks. I could at least get a conversation started... .... and that's always better than your typical responses.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

And that was the point I made with the catholic friends on the catholic apologetic site: .

Just trying to reinforce it and help or contribute.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I would agree, though I do explain to others that I consider myself a Christian and my faith Christian because our intent is to follow Christ and if they deprive me of the label, then I ask them to define what them mean that excludes me...not to attack, but to understand.

My only real problem with this claim is my experience with how it leads those who are not aware of the definitions being used to assume something that is not true about my faith. I think we are better served in these cases to explain the reality rather than spend time protesting the falsehoods beyond noting they exist where necessary for better communication.

But it is fun

[Pahoran]

Much ado about nothing.

Mormons think (know) the LDS Church is Christ's one and only true church.

The LDS Church ... you know, Christ's Church ... doesn't recognized baptisms performed by other Churches.

You send missionaries out in the world to bring more members to Christ one and only church.

They think Smith was a false prophet and the LDS Church leads people away from Christ.

They don't recognize baptisms performed by your church.

The only difference between these two groups is that Mormons pretend to take great umbrage.

And thus we've been jaybeared again.

Jaybear, I realise that you naturally assume that others are just as insincere as you always are.

I also realise that you have absolutely no experience of what it means to hold actual religious convictions on any subject, and that there is no rational reason for you to be obsessed with the Church of Jesus Christ.

And I further realise that you enjoy provoking people to get a reaction, which is why you have laboured so hard to wilfully misrepresent the discussion.

Just so you know, Jaybear, no Latter-day Saint takes "umbrage" -- real or feigned -- at the fact that some (not all) churches don't recognise our baptisms.

Just so you know, in case you didn't already, the disagreement -- not "umbrage" -- in view takes place when certain polemicists counterfactually deny the simple and incontrovertible fact that we are Christians.

Contrary to what you assert, we understand perfectly well that people don't share our beliefs. It's being lied about that we don't like.

And nobody who knows anything thinks that we "pretend" anything about that.

Is that all clear now?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Jaybear]

And thus we've been jaybeared again.

I didn't read past your petty insult. So if you asked me any question, don't expect a response.