77 replies to this topic

[Pa Pa]

Buzzard, on 10 April 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

You keep thinking that if it makes you feel better.  As someone looking down that barrel, I have no doubts at all as to my continued existence beyond death.

Amen

[Mark Beesley]

Craig Paxton, on 10 April 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

As an agnostic, non-believer I completely understand why someone of my ilk would fight to enjoy and live this life for as long as possible and to its fullest extent…this being the only life I believe I will ever experience…I want to enjoy and live THIS life for as long as it is enjoyable.

But why do I repeatedly see believers with cancer or organ failure or some other medical malady, fight with every fiber of their being, submit to every possible evasive medical procedure known to extend their life for a few more years or months, to their last possible fighting breath?  Why do this IF they in fact have a supposedly better life waiting for them on some mystical “other side” and believe or even claim to “KNOW” that this better life exists?  Why put up such a valiant fight?

I have a dear deeply believing LDS friend who has under gone all kinds of medical procedures…terrible surgeries, chemo…months of supposed recovery in absolute misery…to fight his cancer that at the present looks to be winning despite his valiant fight to beat the inevitable.  He is currently in hospice care and his days are now near an end.

His promised priesthood blessing of a full recovery unfulfilled…he still never lost hope…and has now finally resigned to his ultimate fate….but not until he fought so hard to remain in this life…despite having the firm belief that a better life awaited him.

While I would never ask him this question... I do ask it here…why fight so hard if the so called next life is so much better…is it that knowing really isn’t knowing?  Is it the question of all of the uncertainty that believers claim but when faced with reality choose really knowing rather than claimed knowing?

I really want to understand…please help me to do so.

In Doctine and Covenants 138:50 we read,
"For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage."

Yes, we look forward to that day of rest when we will no longer be subject to temptation and mortal weakness.  But that day is after the resurrection.  Before then we have to endure a state of separation of the spirit from the body.  At present we do not entirely understand what that will be like, but we do know, based on President Smith's vision, that it is not an entirely pleasant experience, unless you're into bondage.  

The great blessing that we enjoy which is denied to Lucifer and those who rebelled is the privilege of having a physical body.  It seems only natural, and is probably inbred because of our spiritual natures, that we will want to hold onto this physical body for as long as possible.

Think about about it. the believer knows that this lifetime is the only time he or she will ever have to learn from the unique experience of mortality.  Whatever knowlege we glean from this life through our experiences, that knowledge rises with us in the resurrection.  See D&C 130:18-19.

[Mudcat]

Hi Craig,

As an Evangelical, I have some views that are different from LDS. But I think we would at least share the common view that as Christians, we aren't just bideing  our time in our mortal bodies until eternity "begins" so to speak. We are already in an eternal situation. Our physical death doesn't change that.

LDS seem to believe we existed before our present state. Personally I don't. I do believe from the moment of faith in Christ, we are regenerated in a spiritually eternal sense. So there is some commonality in our views, though not complete consistency.

That being said, the Bible alone establishes that we are called to do good works for God, that we will be tested, we will have trials, we will suffer and through all this we will also be blessed. I imagine the BoM, D and C, and so on teach a similar premise.

I see no Scriptural precedent, that we should roll over and die, because we get some bad news about our health. Paul expresses his own thoughts in his letter to the Philippians when says, "For me to live is Christ, to die is gain." Christian are challenged to struggle with this life, so that the fruit of the Spirit can be expressed through us.

Regards,

Mudcat

Edited by Mudcat, 10 April 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[CV75]

Craig Paxton, on 10 April 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

While I would never ask him this question... I do ask it here…why fight so hard if the so called next life is so much better…is it that knowing really isn’t knowing?  Is it the question of all of the uncertainty that believers claim but when faced with reality choose really knowing rather than claimed knowing?

I really want to understand…please help me to do so.

I suggest that you do ask him or his family, as this will be the most direct experience you can have n getting an honest answer to an honest question, which is a key element to really udnerstanding. You have to put yourself out there "with real intent" and in a way that shows him or his family that you want to know because you love them and will do something noble with the answer.

I do think that the reasons a beleiver would fight to stay alive would mirror those of any other person. Some may be deemed noble, and some are not.

Perhaps staying alive is how he feels he can best honor his stewradship. Perhaps others rely on him doing so, or he thinks there is some benefit to others the longer he hangs on. Perhaps there is something else he wants to experieince and learn, as difficult and painful as sch an experieince can be. Perhaps he is listening to the still small voice instructing him to fight for life. Perhaps he is drawing closer to the things of the spirit and finding great meaning in this life or fighting for it, and that offsets any other consideration.

[CV75]

...and as I think of it, "this life" and the "next life" are only a reflection of each other, so loving one is loving the other, and dealing with one is dealing with the other. Decisions affecting one is always in reference to the other, which is how just about any meanigful decision is made.

[wenglund]

My puzzlement is just the opposite from that expressed in the OP.

To me, it is the belief in God and an after-life, if not also the pre-existence, which gives real meaning and purpose to mortal life, making it not only highly valuable, but worth living even under very challenging conditions.

Absent these belief, I have to wonder why, beyond instinct, people would want to live, let alone cling to life under very trying and non-enjoyable conditions. So what if its supposedly the only life to live? Once you are dead it no longer matters to you and you will have no way to care.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund, 10 April 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[Deborah]

In answer to the question, in large part it's the survival instinct, something that is so strong in us we will fight to hold onto life. But even when we've accepted the inevitable our loved ones may still be holding us here.

And as others have answered we also have things we still want to do and people we still want to be with. This will sound frivolous but when I heard they were making Lord of the Rings into a movie I wanted to live long enough to see the whole thing, and then after that I wanted to be around to see my new grandchild born, and after that....and so on. Now this is not to suggest that I have a terminal illness and am dying but that I recognize the fragility of life and how it can be lost in a split second.

There have been times when I've been in so much pain I wanted to die. But then I'd look at one of my grandchildren and think that I need to see this little one grow up first. But then what happens when I have great grandchildren, which is probably just a few years away. There is always something to live for.

[MorningStar]

So if an Atheist isn't afraid to die, can we assume that they secretly believe in God?  

[mbh26]

When decisions like this are left up to God, to me it seems like it becomes the individuals responsibility to figure out what God wants.  Medicine can keep people alive a lot longer than those people can afford to pay for it.  That's why I'm such a strong proponent of these decisions being left up to individuals and their families rather than governments.

[Mark Beesley]

Deborah, on 10 April 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

In answer to the question, in large part it's the survival instinct, something that is so strong in us we will fight to hold onto life. But even when we've accepted the inevitable our loved ones may still be holding us here.

And as others have answered we also have things we still want to do and people we still want to be with. This will sound frivolous but when I heard they were making Lord of the Rings into a movie I wanted to live long enough to see the whole thing . .

I'm assuming that I'll be able to retrieve my Lord of the Rings movies so I can enjoy them in the eternities.  

[Deborah]

Mark Beesley, on 10 April 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

I'm assuming that I'll be able to retrieve my Lord of the Rings movies so I can enjoy them in the eternities.  

Me too!

[Stargazer]

Interesting topic.

I think that as believers we were put here for a reason and are expected to remain until called home.  How do you know the call is serious until it is inescapable?

A man in my ward just a few months ago lost his wife of 60 years to cancer.  He is still hail and hearty, but a few Sundays ago he sat with me and confided to me sadly that he really missed her, and wanted to go join her, but couldn't.

I've kind of decided that I won't fight if the call to go home gets issued.  Past the point of I'd like to provide some of my grandkids with my accumulated wisdom, I am somewhat looking forward it.

[thesometimesaint]

Stargazer:

I'm still at the point where my younger Grandkids laugh at my jokes. Maybe when they get a little older they'll just moan.

[BCSpace]

Quote

Why put up such a valiant fight?

-More time to repent.
-Faith is not a perfect knowledge, hence fear of the unknown remains.
etc.

[Craig Paxton]

thesometimesaint, on 10 April 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Craig Paxton:

All we know is that this life is 100% fatal. We are ALL really doing is just prolonging the inevitable.

We don't know what is premature. My mom lived to 93 was that premature when I have aunts and uncles that lived to be 103?

Some do give up, but the vast majority don't. It seems to be a built in that we want to live a meaningful, to us, life however long that happens to turn out.

I have loved ones on both sides of the veil. Which ones should I choose to be with?

I believe that life should be lived for as long as life is worth living.  Each individual must make this decission themselves.  but (for me) I see some extending life way beyond what (I) would view as worth living...I see this as a fear of what else is coming...the big unknown...despite these people claiming to have a belief in the hereafter they still appear to fear the hereafter.

I do not think anyone who is healthy and enjoying life should end it prematurely...but once it is not worth living...should one continue to fight to extend life?  Yet I see many around me doing this...despite their claim that they believe in an after life

Edited by Craig Paxton, 10 April 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[AddamS]

Just my 2 cents...

I think nearly all human beings, regardless of spritual beliefs or lack thereof, fear change.

It is human nature.

[altersteve]

Because I don't want to die yet. I'm having fun down here on this little blue and green marble.

[LDS_RM]

why fight so hard to live, even if you believe in the afterlife? I think some lyrics address the reason:

"And I was round when jesus christ. Had his moment of doubt and pain."

I believe Faith will always be tested. Joseph Smith was told "Thou art not yet as Job"; I view this phrase meaning "as" Job, not exactly the same situation Job was in. A kind of "proportionality test of Faith". We know that we will not be tested beyond what we can bear, thus everyones "tests" is proportional or relative to the next person, and in the end we will all have passed the same test of faithfulness.

[Darth_Bill]

Fear of the unknown and that it might hurt.

[LDSToronto]

Because faith is not knowledge, death is the ultimate call of all wagers. Anxiety hides in the shadows of faith; as faith is but a guess, equal to all others.

H.