85 replies to this topic

[Senator]

Kenngo1969, on 09 April 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

See???  This huge conspiracy is taking place right under your nose!!!

I have no such suspicion.

[Valentinus]

smac97, on 08 April 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Here:

"We Have no Issue with the Members of the Mormon Church, their Doctrines, or their Faith. The Purpose of this Petition is to bring Financial Transparency to the Financial Dealings of the Leadership of the Mormon Church. Where indicated, we desire a criminal investigation that would focus on potential Fraud, Personal Enrichment, Theft by Deception, RICO violations, Money Laundering, Kickbacks and Criminal Conspiracy. This Petition will be forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, United States Attorney General, Congress and other Law Enforcement, Political or Media entities.

WHEREAS

: The Mormon (LDS)Church is run as a Corporation Sole with no known financial accountability to the General Membership, and will not disclose its financial dealings, assets or liabilities to the General Membership or any public entity.

WHEREAS

: The Mormon Church did fully disclose its finances to the General Membership prior to the 1950s.

WHEREAS

: Without Consent of the General Membership Church Donations, Tithes, Fast offerrings and other sacrifices by the General Membership have built the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

WHEREAS

: The Corporation of the Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric of the Church of Latter-Day Sainst were created without the specific approval of the General Membership as Corporate soles, contrary to Church Doctrine, which states that ALL THINGS MUST BE DONE BY COMMON CONSENT of the General Membership.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors was created without the Common Consent of the General Membership as a Secret Holding Company for the receipt of Church Assets from the sales of Church Businesses and other assets without the COMMON CONSENT of the General Membership.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors has been involved in transferring wealth "Off the Books" of the Church and into highly suspect investments according to public articles in the media. These transactions appeared to involve sub-prime mortgages, high-risk derivatives, put options, call options and futures.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors appears to be an instrument of plunderto transfer Wealth from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors Appears to have involved Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and Robert Gay and Goldman Sachs in this wealth transfer.

WHEREAS

: H Burton Davis, the President of the Presiding Bishopric was terminated in his position after these allegations were made public, a possible cover-up, and attempt to thwart any criminal investigation and possible Obstruction of Justice.

WHEREAS

: Robert Gay was just appointed to First Quorum of the Seventy of the Church.

WHEREAS

: Ensign Peak Advisors and other Church Assets that rightfully belong to the General Membership were used to construct a Luxury Retail Mall with cost over-runs in the billions of dollars, without the COMMON CONSENT of the MEMBERSHIP.

WHEREAS

: Retail Developments with extensive cost over-runs often involve kick-backs and money-laundering, as well as theft by deception, and could violate RICO laws.

WHEREAS

: The Assets of Beneficial Life, another Church Asset, also appears to have been plundered through the use of subprime mortages and derivatives that may involve Ensign Peak Advisors, Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and Leaders of the Mormon Church.

WHEREAS

: The President of Deseret Management, which manages Beneficial Life as a Church Holding Company was also terminated recently, in what could be another attempt to thwart justice.

WE Petition The FBI, Congress, The United States Attorney General and other entities to investigate

the First Presidency, Presiding Bishopric, Ensign Peak Advisors, Deseret Management, for high crimes and misdemeanors against the General Membership fo the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

WE Further Petition

:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to make public all of its financial holdings and records

through its newspaper, the Deseret Morning News. That the Church would disband its Corporations of the First Presidency and Presiding Bishopric forthwith, and replace them with a proper Board of Directors or other governing organization to be sustained by the General Membership of the Church.

WE Further Petition

: That all past financial dealings be disclosed to the General Membership of the Church, including assets, liabilities, expenditures, salaries, other holdings, investment losses and performance of all Church owned entities which rightfully belong to the General Membership."

_________

Notice that this petition was not started by Mormons ("We Have no Issue with the Members of the Mormon Church, their Doctrines, or their Faith.").

There are a few puzzling bits about this.  The third "Whereas" clause ("Without Consent of the General Membership Church Donations, Tithes, Fast offerrings and other sacrifices by the General Membership have built the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints") is strange. How are voluntary donations used "without consent?

The bit about Ensign Peak Advisors is interesting, as I hadn't heard about this entity before.  There are a few antipathetic articles about it online, including breathless claims about apostles being paid $600K/yr.  Uh, yeah.

The bit about "H Burton Davis, the President of the Presiding Bishopric" is amusingly off-base.  First, there is no such thing as a "President of the Presiding Bishopric."  Second, there is no "H Burton Davis."  The author is clearly referring to H. David Burton, the presiding bishop of the LDS Church from 12/27/95 to 03/31/12.

I doubt this petition will get much traction.  

-Smac

I honestly don't know what to say to this. I'm not familiar enough with the issues to have an opinion. Can someone dumb this down for me?

[Cobalt-70]

Stargazer, on 09 April 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

The other thing is "separation of church and state".  There appears to be a long-standing constitutional principle that is at stake here.

There wouldn't be a constitutional problem if there truly were fraud going on. But if the church makes no promises on how it will use the money, there is no fraud. If a man showed up on your door and asked you for a donation of $100, without telling you what it would be used for, and you voluntarily gave him the money, then you couldn't complain to have been defrauded.

Edited by Cobalt-70, 09 April 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[cinepro]

Cobalt-70, on 09 April 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

There wouldn't be a constitutional problem if there truly were fraud going on. But if the church makes no promises on how it will use the money, there is no fraud. If a man showed up on your door and asked you for a donation of $100, without telling you what it would be used for, and you voluntarily gave him the money, then you couldn't complain to have been defrauded.

And apparently if you politely asked what he was going to do with it (or what he had done with it), it would be rude.

[Buzzard]

Valentinus, on 09 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

I honestly don't know what to say to this. I'm not familiar enough with the issues to have an opinion. Can someone dumb this down for me?

Happy to.  Someone wants thier 15 minutes of fame, makes wild/baseless allegations.  Nothing to see here, folks, move along.

[altersteve]

Valentinus, on 09 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

I honestly don't know what to say to this. I'm not familiar enough with the issues to have an opinion. Can someone dumb this down for me?

The Church doesn't disclose all its finances to the public (in most countries) because it isn't required to, so some people want the FBI to investigate the Church to see if it's committing fraud and other crimes against its membership. Bit stupid, really.

Edited by altersteve, 09 April 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[LDSToronto]

ebeddoulos, on 08 April 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

My experience is about a decade old but every branch, ward district and stake was audited every six months.  I am quite sure that the upper echelons received much the same treatment.  It is from these twice annual audits that the Conference financial report is based.

Who does the auditing?

H.

[Stargazer]

Just for the fun of it, I registered at the site and made a couple of comments.  If you happen to stop by, the comments I made are made by "Cyberherbalist."

[cdowis]

Valentinus, on 09 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

I honestly don't know what to say to this. I'm not familiar enough with the issues to have an opinion. Can someone dumb this down for me?

OK.

We are professionals and members of the opposition research group for Team Obama.  We have done just enough research to manufacture a scandal for Romney and his church.  The petition makes everything sound sinister, even though it is normal business  for any financial institution.  No big deal but it sounds very very scary --

"These transactions appeared to involve sub-prime mortgages, high-risk derivatives, put options, call options and futures."

"Ensign Peak Advisors Appears to have involved Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and Robert Gay and Goldman Sachs in this wealth transfer." (emphasis mine)

Very clever how we bring Romney into this with complete deniability ("appears" is used several times).

This is carefully written with a specific agenda.  It is a "hit piece" with Romney as the target.

Note:  On the registration page, it says, "Join the Web's most popular liberal message board!"

Edited by cdowis, 09 April 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[LDSToronto]

LDSToronto, on 09 April 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Who does the auditing?

H.

Meh, you guys are taking to long to answer this - so I'll do it. Stake and ward auditing is done by a stake auditor. This person is called and is trained in the church auditing system. The auditor does not need to have any skill or training in auditing or accounting.

As for the twice per year requirement, audits only need to happen once per year if I recall. However, the stakes I have been in have always gotten behind for various reasons. SLC sends a notice reminding stakes to catch up. I've been in stakes where wards were not audited for a couple of years.

H.

[Bernard Gui]

LDSToronto, on 09 April 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Meh, you guys are taking to long to answer this - so I'll do it. Stake and ward auditing is done by a stake auditor. This person is called and is trained in the church auditing system. The auditor does not need to have any skill or training in auditing or accounting.

As for the twice per year requirement, audits only need to happen once per year if I recall. However, the stakes I have been in have always gotten behind for various reasons. SLC sends a notice reminding stakes to catch up. I've been in stakes where wards were not audited for a couple of years.

H.

And I, as ward clerk, take the audits very seriously. My assistant for finances has a great deal of experience in financial auditing and he takes it very seriously, too. So does the stake auditor who audits us. We account for
every penny that passes through our ward system. Our bishop and his councilors, the stake presidency and
high council are scrupulous when it comes to handling the money people donate to the Church, the money we
receive from SLC to run our programs, and the way for which it is accounted.

Bernard

[calmoriah]

Buzzard, on 09 April 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Someone wants thier 15 minutes of fame, makes wild/baseless allegations.  

Paul Drockton actually.  (He's the Illuminati guy, if you remember).

So far he has 33 signatures, of which quite a few (at least 12) are ineligible.

Edited by calmoriah, 09 April 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[cdowis]

LDSToronto, on 09 April 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Stake and ward auditing is done by a stake auditor. This person is called and is trained in the church auditing system. The auditor does not need to have any skill or training in auditing or accounting.

As for the twice per year requirement, audits only need to happen once per year if I recall. However, the stakes I have been in have always gotten behind for various reasons. SLC sends a notice reminding stakes to catch up. I've been in stakes where wards were not audited for a couple of years.

The ultimate responsibility for an audit is the responsibility of the individual at tithing settlement.  The ward record is given to the member and they can compare it with their personal records (their copy of the tithing slip).

[jadams_4242]

jealousy....:}

[LDSToronto]

cdowis, on 09 April 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

The ultimate responsibility for an audit is the responsibility of the individual at tithing settlement.  The ward record is given to the member and they can compare it with their personal records (their copy of the tithing slip).

That's false. The audit goes beyond donations.

H.

[LDSToronto]

Bernard Gui, on 09 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

And I, as ward clerk, take the audits very seriously. My assistant for finances has a great deal of experience in financial auditing and he takes it very seriously, too. So does the stake auditor who audits us. We account for
every penny that passes through our ward system. Our bishop and his councilors, the stake presidency and
high council are scrupulous when it comes to handling the money people donate to the Church, the money we
receive from SLC to run our programs, and the way for which it is accounted.

Bernard

Perhaps i gave the wrong impression; the majority of local leaders are honest and trustworthy with respect to handling donations and disbursements. In all my years, I've only experienced two misappropriations, both criminal acts, and nothing I would attribute to being LDS.

The point I was making was that audits are conducted by internal auditors who are are not trained as accountants and there is a tendency to let audits slide in local units. While I would never call into question your integrity, there are more than 35,000 units in the church, implying 35,000+ clerks; there are varying levels of commitment.

I think the church would do better to use an independent auditor, just to remove that as a point of concern for us critics

H.

[cdowis]

del

Edited by cdowis, 09 April 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[Avatar4321]

I feel so flattered that we reached the attention of the DU. They are much like certain unnamed message boards that ban anyone who even hints as disagreement. I have countless acquaintences who have been banned from it. I probably would have as well if I hadnt gotten board with the place really fast.

I take them about as seriously as any other anti-mormon site.

[Avatar4321]

Reading some of the comments. Someone is claiming there were major changes at General Conference. What on earth are they talking about?

[LDSToronto]

cdowis, on 09 April 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

My post was exactly correct as I actually wrote it. Please cease putting words in my mouth.

My post too! JINX!

H.