Jaybear Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 And this is where the misunderstanding comes and why we need some clarification. Even on the ldsnewsroom site with its mormonism 101 segment, it states that mormons do not believe that they will get their own planet. But there are still members who think that they will get their own planet.This puzzles me.Mormon believe in eternal marriage, which frankly is one of your better selling point. Far more enticing the giving up alcohol and paying over ten percent of your income.The doctrine of eternal marriage fits hand in hand with deification. Afterall, what purpose would be served by an eternal marriage if not to procreate and raise spirit children? If you are led by modern day prophets, why is your understanding of this doctrine more cloudy today that it was 40 years ago?
Evergrow Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 http://www.catholic....ve-in-many-godsDid he get it right or was he off base?Online Catholic Websites sadly when it comes to Mormonism have been pretty anti-mormon, entirely bearing false witness of us just like other anti-mormons do. I have a theory it's been mostly due to former Protestants/Evangelicals entering the religion. Take the above link, the guy is a former Protestant.After listening, I was surprised to see that he actually got it right that it's "not clear" in Mormonism whether when deified we will get our own Planets etc. So, he did get that right. But, to be clear the reason it's not clear is because it's not actually a "doctrine", it's only a teaching a thought, a natural assumption from the actual doctrine that is often taught in the Church, just like many things are taught and said which aren't directly doctrine on all kinds of subjects.I really only had one nitpick with this particular presentation (contrary to the written ones where there are lots of problems). He kept saying that we believe we will become "deity". I don't know of anyone in mormonism who says or looks at it that way. We say and look at it the way Christ did in the Bible, we are gods, will be joint heirs with Christ, etc. The need of our critics to sensationalize us just shakes my head.
zerinus Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 This puzzles me.Mormon believe in eternal marriage, which frankly is one of your better selling point. Far more enticing the giving up alcohol and paying over ten percent of your income.The doctrine of eternal marriage fits hand in hand with deification. Afterall, what purpose would be served by an eternal marriage if not to procreate and raise spirit children?Indeed, eternal marriage is an integral part of the doctrine of deification and exaltation. To be exalted, you have to be married for eternity by the proper priesthood authority, which can only be done in Mormon temples. Furthermore, the most significant blessing to be enjoyed by those who obtain exaltation is indeed the "continuation of the seeds forever," which has been interpreted to mean and eternal posterity. These are all true and legitimate Mormon doctrines. But none of this translates into "becoming god of your own planet," or that they will have "celestial sex," and she becomes "pregnant with spirit kids". The first is Mormon doctrine; the second is not.If you are led by modern day prophets, why is your understanding of this doctrine more cloudy today that it was 40 years ago?I can't speak for him or anybody else; but what God has revealed and what He has not is clear.
why me Posted April 4, 2012 Author Posted April 4, 2012 This puzzles me.Mormon believe in eternal marriage, which frankly is one of your better selling point. Far more enticing the giving up alcohol and paying over ten percent of your income.The doctrine of eternal marriage fits hand in hand with deification. Afterall, what purpose would be served by an eternal marriage if not to procreate and raise spirit children?If you are led by modern day prophets, why is your understanding of this doctrine more cloudy today that it was 40 years ago?I think that many opinions have been batted around and this would be a sign of a vibrant and questioning church. But I need to remind myself that it takes more than one person's opinion to make it doctrine. I also think that the point that children are sealed to the parents may be against the idea of having one's own planet. And to live with heavenly father would also be against it.
why me Posted April 4, 2012 Author Posted April 4, 2012 I hadn't visited that place for a while, and I didn't know that he had been banned. But I am not altogether surprised. There has been a systematic effort to cull all the LDS out of that site for quite some time, and it was inevitable that his turn would come eventually. And I don't blame the "Catholics" for it either. There are a bunch of Mormon apostates in there who pretend to be Catholics, but who in reality have no more faith in Catholicism than in Mormonism; and they have banded together to undermine Mormon posters by repeatedly alerting the mods with bogus complaints, and have succeeded in turning forum administration against them. There have also been changes in administration and new moderators who have been sympathetic to the apostates' cause, and all of this has combined to turn the entire board against the Mormons. But things don't always stay the same. Some day the tables will be turned against them.Parker dd nothing wrong except articulate lds thought very well. I think that the exmormons just found him threatening because his posts were good and well thought out. And you are right about the pretending to be catholics. Their behavior is very uncatholic. I have known no catholic with such hostility toward any faith. They are open minded and respectful, knowing well that no faith is above criticism from people who have hatred in their hearts.
Storm Rider Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 Life as I know it must be ending!!! I'm in agreement with zerinus. OH MY!I went back to the old site just to check up on how things were going now that all the LDS are gone. Of course, the same old same old former "Mormons" were in full play. There really is some skank going on over there; all right in front of those beloved Admins. A true Catholic and a true LDS have a great deal in common; they both follow Jesus Christ. What a blessing that is when they recognize each other as disciples.
zerinus Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 Parker dd nothing wrong except articulate lds thought very well.Actually he wasn't all that good at "articulating LDS thought," which is why he lasted longer than anyone else. You couldn't have found a sweeter soul there than dianiad; and she got banned before anybody else did; because she was indeed good at "articulating LDS thought".I think that the exmormons just found him threatening because his posts were good and well thought out.I like to call them Mormon apostates! There is actually one person who is behind it all. I won't say who she is, but she is the mastermind, and has managed to recruit a bunch of others to her side, who have combined forces against the Mormons. Now of course the entire admin is turned against the Mormons. If Parker gets banned, nobody else stands a chance.And you are right about the pretending to be catholics. Their behavior is very uncatholic. I have known no catholic with such hostility toward any faith. They are open minded and respectful, knowing well that no faith is above criticism from people who have hatred in their hearts.Like I said, they are Mormon apostates. For them Catholicism is simply a suitable platform from which to launch attacks against Mormonism. That is the only use it has for them. Apostates are all the same, whether they are Mormon apostates or Catholic apostates. Have you seen how hateful and vitriolic Catholic apostates are against Catholicism? They usually become Evangelicals or something like that, and turn their guns on Catholicism, and become more hateful towards the Catholic Church than lifelong Evangelicals are. It is the same with Mormon apostates, or any other kind of apostates. I am guessing that one day these very same people will turn against the Catholic Church, and will be as hateful towards Catholicism as they have been towards Mormonism.
Calm Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) I'd also point to dead unbaptized babies going to limbo, which was a very well known and prominent theologyIt was never official doctrine, more of a folklore. Vatican II clarified this as has on occasion happened among LDS, for example with the less valiant folklore.edit: I see this has been addressed. Edited April 4, 2012 by calmoriah
Jaybear Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 I think that many opinions have been batted around and this would be a sign of a vibrant and questioning church. But I need to remind myself that it takes more than one person's opinion to make it doctrine. I also think that the point that children are sealed to the parents may be against the idea of having one's own planet. And to live with heavenly father would also be against it.Good point. Can't say I understand the reasoning behind families are forever, or being sealed to parents. It most certainly doesn't jive with "continuation of the seeds forever". Indeed, eternal marriage is an integral part of the doctrine of deification and exaltation. To be exalted, you have to be married for eternity by the proper priesthood authority, which can only be done in Mormon temples. You forgot to say "I believe that...", or the "The LDS Church teaches that.."Furthermore, the most significant blessing to be enjoyed by those who obtain exaltation is indeed the "continuation of the seeds forever," which has been interpreted to mean and eternal posterity. These are all true and legitimate Mormon doctrines. But none of this translates into "becoming god of your own planet," or that they will have "celestial sex," and she becomes "pregnant with spirit kids". The first is Mormon doctrine; the second is not.Lets see, mormons believe that (1)God has a human form, (2) that gender is eternal, (3) that He has a celestial wife or wives, (4) they reside in the celestial kingdom; and (5) that together they produce spirit children, but you don't believe they have sex. Or is it more accurate to say that Mormons do believe they will have sex in the celestial Kindgom with their celestial wives, but because your leaders have not ever come out and said it, its not doctrine.I can't speak for him or anybody else; but what God has revealed and what He has not is clear.As long as God continues to speak through fallible men, who seem incapable of discerning personal opinion and revelation, he is far from clear.
Nemesis Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 Jaybear are you turning this thread into a sex thread? Everyone get back on topic or leave the thread.Nemesis
why me Posted April 4, 2012 Author Posted April 4, 2012 As long as God continues to speak through fallible men, who seem incapable of discerning personal opinion and revelation, he is far from clear.Hasn't this been always the case? Look at poor Paul in the New Testament. He sort of expected Christ to come sooner than later. He was also speculating and giving his opinion. Also, we have no idea just what Paul was saying in his daily conversations. He must of been expounding on this and that but we have no record of it. But here is one thing I know: Listening to conference, if one can find a way to live as was suggested, this world would be a better place and each society would be a healthier habitat to live in.
why me Posted April 4, 2012 Author Posted April 4, 2012 The doctrine of eternal marriage fits hand in hand with deification. Afterall, what purpose would be served by an eternal marriage if not to procreate and raise spirit children?I just know that we were all made in God's image and if this were the case, how this came about is unknown. Eternal marriage would be just one of many blessings: to live eternally with the spirit being that one loved in life, complete with the children that were born in life, would certainly be a kind gift from our heavenly parents. What more would one want?
Jaybear Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 I just know that we were all made in God's image and if this were the case, how this came about is unknown. Eternal marriage would be just one of many blessings: to live eternally with the spirit being that one loved in life, complete with the children that were born in life, would certainly be a kind gift from our heavenly parents. What more would one want?Most all religions teach that we will be reunited in heaven with our loved ones. Your teaches more .. .that more being eternal marriage. If it means simply living eternally with the spirit being that one loved in life, that is not more, that is the same teaching.What then is the point and purpose of eternal marriage?
Jaybear Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 Hasn't this been always the case?Yes. The sole exception being when God carved his words into stone tablets.
why me Posted April 4, 2012 Author Posted April 4, 2012 Most all religions teach that we will be reunited in heaven with our loved ones. Your teaches more .. .that more being eternal marriage.Not true. Till death do you part is the rule. The lds have a different message: in eternity, the marriage continues as one is united with the earthly spouse and with the offspring, who in turn can be united with their partner and offspring. And as such, eternity is is one big family united in kinship. And it is here were mormonism stands alone.
zerinus Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 Lets see, mormons believe that (1)God has a human form, (2) that gender is eternal, (3) that He has a celestial wife or wives, (4) they reside in the celestial kingdom; and (5) that together they produce spirit children, but you don't believe they have sex. Or is it more accurate to say that Mormons do believe they will have sex in the celestial Kindgom with their celestial wives, but because your leaders have not ever come out and said it, its not doctrine.My point was not regarding whether they have sex or not, but how the "continuation of the seeds" is obtained. I don't believe that she becomes pregnant with spirit kids, and goes to spirit hospital to be delivered by a spirit midwife, and there is a spirit doctor at hand to provide a cesarean section operation in case she has hard labor. That is not how the spirits of men come to be--regardless of whether they have sex in heaven or not.As long as God continues to speak through fallible men, who seem incapable of discerning personal opinion and revelation, he is far from clear.The pure doctrine revealed in the canonized scriptures of the Church are always discernible from the opinions of fallible men. 1
Jaybear Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 Not true. Till death do you part is the rule. The lds have a different message: in eternity, the marriage continues as one is united with the earthly spouse and with the offspring, who in turn can be united with their partner and offspring. And as such, eternity is is one big family united in kinship. And it is here were mormonism stands alone.Nonsense. I said "reunited" with loved ones. That is a true statement. Till death only refers to the marriage. I agree that Mormonism stands alone in that it offers a marriage that survives death. The question is what purpose is served by marriage in the eternities?
saemo Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 I'll make the argument that as a Catholic, I believe more firmly that I'll be reunited with my family in heaven than LDS do. I don't believe you have to be Catholic to live in heaven forever with God. So my LDS family can be there, as can I, all reunited. Where, my LDS family believes I have to be/live LDS in order to be with them. From my view, the LDS idea splits more people apart in heaven than it unites.
why me Posted April 4, 2012 Author Posted April 4, 2012 I'll make the argument that as a Catholic, I believe more firmly that I'll be reunited with my family in heaven than LDS do.Not true. Catholics have a very real and living hell. And the sinners have a place in that hell. Also, it is to death do you part in the catholic faith and in heaven there are no marriages for the catholic. This can seem to be a little sad not to see your earthly spouse as an eternal spouse. .
thesometimesaint Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) saemo:LDS don't teach that we won't all, at least all those who make it, will be together in Heaven. Just that as families we'll have our own mansion. Edited April 4, 2012 by thesometimesaint
blueadept Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) Not true. Catholics have a very real and living hell. And the sinners have a place in that hell. Also, it is to death do you part in the catholic faith and in heaven there are no marriages for the catholic. This can seem to be a little sad not to see your earthly spouse as an eternal spouse. .As a Catholic, I disagree with your version and mine is a little closer to saemo's. I believe I will be with my spouse. In what way, may be a bit of a mystery which I'm fine with. Edited April 4, 2012 by blueadept
Jaybear Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 saemo:LDS don't teach that we won't all, at least all those who make it, will be together in Heaven. Just that as families we'll have our own mansion.Define family. Will your mother in law be living in that mansion with you?
why me Posted April 4, 2012 Author Posted April 4, 2012 As a Catholic, I disagree with your version and it's a little closer to saemo's. I believe I will be with my spouse. In what way, may be a bit of a mystery which I'm fine with.I think that the problem blue is centered in the verses by Paul which seems to divide the heavens into kingdoms of glory. Much depends on how mormons and catholics interpret those verses. Also, I do remember as a catholic boy knowing very well that I must confess my sins to a priest, especially the mortal sins or I could go to hell. I must say it was rather tough to get my head around this as a boy. But hell was a real and tangible place of eternal misery.As strange as it may seem, the mormon heaven does make sense and it is fair. We are judged by a loving heavenly father according to our actions on earth and based on these actions there is kingdom which we will inherit.
why me Posted April 4, 2012 Author Posted April 4, 2012 Define family. Will your mother in law be living in that mansion with you?As I said, I see it as a family of kinship. And as such the mother in law is apart of such a kinship. If we take this to JS's polygamy, we can see his mind at work: the sealed wife and her family are together in kinship with the prophet. And this also applies to JS.
blueadept Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 Also, I do remember as a catholic boy knowing very well that I must confess my sins to a priest, especially the mortal sins or I could go to hell. I must say it was rather tough to get my head around this as a boy. But hell was a real and tangible place of eternal misery.As strange as it may seem, the mormon heaven does make sense and it is fair. We are judged by a loving heavenly father according to our actions on earth and based on these actions there is kingdom which we will inherit.Well, if you still have the 'boyish' version of what mortal sin is, I can appreciate why you would prefer the LDS version of the afterlife and view it as being more fair.For myself, I believe the Catholic version (which includes the correct understanding of purgatory) is more loving and inclusive in who will be in heaven. In both LDS and Catholic versions, those that will be in eternal hell will be minimal IMHO.
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