I make it a point not to tell LDS what they use to believe that was later replaced by something else. A moot point IMHO. In talking with enough authorities within the church, I'm still of the opinion limbo was never dogmatic.
That depends I suppose on how you define dogma. If something is accepted by the Pope and the Vatican, I would have thought that can be called dogma. But I could be wrong. You would know better. Limbo, however, was accepted by the Pope and the Vatican for a time:
Pope Innocent III accepted Abelard’s Doctrine of Limbo, which amended Augustine of Hippo’s Doctrine of Original Sin. The Vatican accepted the view that unbaptized babies did not, as at first believed, go straight to Hell but to a special area of limbo, “limbus infantium”. They would therefore feel no pain but no supernatural happiness either (only natural) because, it was held, they would not be able to see the deity that created them. Source.
Well, I at least thank you for pointing out that you do not understand how things in the Catholic church becomes 'dogmatic.'
Many Popes said that the only hope for salvation was through the RCC which isn't 'dogmatic.' It wasn't until Vatican II 'Lumen Gentium' that an actual 'dogmatic' understanding was actually established. That said, it's not always necessary for a council to be held for something to be 'dogmatic.' Humanae Vitae IS a 'dogmatic' document that isn't associated with any council.
"Change is inevitable, Growth is not"
In Honor of Anijen, the 2012 MD&D March Madness Champion "There once was a Pharisee named Saul, Who persecuted Christians with gall. Then God struck him blind And opened his mind, So he could recognize his true call."
In a sidenote, our friend Parker was banned from their forum. I was shocked to see this happen. I think that he was scoring points in his posts and some of the catholics could not handle it.
I hadn't visited that place for a while, and I didn't know that he had been banned. But I am not altogether surprised. There has been a systematic effort to cull all the LDS out of that site for quite some time, and it was inevitable that his turn would come eventually. And I don't blame the "Catholics" for it either. There are a bunch of Mormon apostates in there who pretend to be Catholics, but who in reality have no more faith in Catholicism than in Mormonism; and they have banded together to undermine Mormon posters by repeatedly alerting the mods with bogus complaints, and have succeeded in turning forum administration against them. There have also been changes in administration and new moderators who have been sympathetic to the apostates' cause, and all of this has combined to turn the entire board against the Mormons. But things don't always stay the same. Some day the tables will be turned against them.
I hadn't visited that place for a while, and I didn't know that he had been banned. But I am not altogether surprised. There has been a systematic effort to cull all the LDS out of that site for quite some time, and it was inevitable that his turn would come eventually. And I don't blame the "Catholics" for it either. There are a bunch of Mormon apostates in there who pretend to be Catholics, but who in reality have no more faith in Catholicism than in Mormonism; and they have banded together to undermine Mormon posters by repeatedly alerting the mods with bogus complaints, and have succeeded in turning forum administration against them. There have also been changes in administration and new moderators who have been sympathetic to the apostates' cause, and all of this has combined to turn the entire board against the Mormons. But things don't always stay the same. Some day the tables will be turned against them.
Life as I know it must be ending!!! I'm in agreement with zerinus. OH MY!
"Change is inevitable, Growth is not"
In Honor of Anijen, the 2012 MD&D March Madness Champion "There once was a Pharisee named Saul, Who persecuted Christians with gall. Then God struck him blind And opened his mind, So he could recognize his true call."
Unfortunately the doctrines that he teaches were once upon a time a widely held belief among LDS, so one cannot entirely blame the anti-Mormons for repeating them. The blame in the first instance rests with the Church for not being sufficiently alert to safeguard the purity of Church doctrine. Having said that, however; it is correct to say that while the doctrines of the deification of man and plurality of gods is a doctrine of the Mormonism, the idea of men becoming "gods of their own planets," or there being an infinite regression of Gods, is not.
Unfortunately the doctrines that he teaches were once upon a time a widely held belief among LDS, so one cannot entirely blame the anti-Mormons for repeating them. The blame in the first instance rests with the Church for not being sufficiently alert to safeguard the purity of Church doctrine. Having said that, however; it is correct to say that while the doctrines of the deification of man and plurality of gods is a doctrine of the Mormonism, the idea of men becoming "gods of their own planets," or there being an infinite regression of Gods, is not.
Now if you can apply this string of logic to the issue of Limbo, we're home free.
"Change is inevitable, Growth is not"
In Honor of Anijen, the 2012 MD&D March Madness Champion "There once was a Pharisee named Saul, Who persecuted Christians with gall. Then God struck him blind And opened his mind, So he could recognize his true call."
While ParkerD didn't have the touch of a TomNosser and a couple other LDS apologists, I did respect his apologetic skills.
It would be great if he would post here. Not many lds posters left on that site now. The mods are picking off the good ones now. And catholics are still somewhat mocking the lds church. Good that we are more civil here.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
Having said that, however; it is correct to say that while the doctrines of the deification of man and plurality of gods is a doctrine of the Mormonism, the idea of men becoming "gods of their own planets," or there being an infinite regression of Gods, is not.
And this is where the misunderstanding comes and why we need some clarification. Even on the ldsnewsroom site with its mormonism 101 segment, it states that mormons do not believe that they will get their own planet. But there are still members who think that they will get their own planet.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
And this is where the misunderstanding comes and why we need some clarification. Even on the ldsnewsroom site with its mormonism 101 segment, it states that mormons do not believe that they will get their own planet. But there are still members who think that they will get their own planet.
This puzzles me.
Mormon believe in eternal marriage, which frankly is one of your better selling point. Far more enticing the giving up alcohol and paying over ten percent of your income.
The doctrine of eternal marriage fits hand in hand with deification. Afterall, what purpose would be served by an eternal marriage if not to procreate and raise spirit children?
If you are led by modern day prophets, why is your understanding of this doctrine more cloudy today that it was 40 years ago?
Online Catholic Websites sadly when it comes to Mormonism have been pretty anti-mormon, entirely bearing false witness of us just like other anti-mormons do. I have a theory it's been mostly due to former Protestants/Evangelicals entering the religion. Take the above link, the guy is a former Protestant.
After listening, I was surprised to see that he actually got it right that it's "not clear" in Mormonism whether when deified we will get our own Planets etc. So, he did get that right. But, to be clear the reason it's not clear is because it's not actually a "doctrine", it's only a teaching a thought, a natural assumption from the actual doctrine that is often taught in the Church, just like many things are taught and said which aren't directly doctrine on all kinds of subjects.
I really only had one nitpick with this particular presentation (contrary to the written ones where there are lots of problems). He kept saying that we believe we will become "deity". I don't know of anyone in mormonism who says or looks at it that way. We say and look at it the way Christ did in the Bible, we are gods, will be joint heirs with Christ, etc. The need of our critics to sensationalize us just shakes my head.
This puzzles me.
Mormon believe in eternal marriage, which frankly is one of your better selling point. Far more enticing the giving up alcohol and paying over ten percent of your income.
The doctrine of eternal marriage fits hand in hand with deification. Afterall, what purpose would be served by an eternal marriage if not to procreate and raise spirit children?
Indeed, eternal marriage is an integral part of the doctrine of deification and exaltation. To be exalted, you have to be married for eternity by the proper priesthood authority, which can only be done in Mormon temples. Furthermore, the most significant blessing to be enjoyed by those who obtain exaltation is indeed the "continuation of the seeds forever," which has been interpreted to mean and eternal posterity. These are all true and legitimate Mormon doctrines. But none of this translates into "becoming god of your own planet," or that they will have "celestial sex," and she becomes "pregnant with spirit kids". The first is Mormon doctrine; the second is not.
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If you are led by modern day prophets, why is your understanding of this doctrine more cloudy today that it was 40 years ago?
I can't speak for him or anybody else; but what God has revealed and what He has not is clear.
This puzzles me.
Mormon believe in eternal marriage, which frankly is one of your better selling point. Far more enticing the giving up alcohol and paying over ten percent of your income.
The doctrine of eternal marriage fits hand in hand with deification. Afterall, what purpose would be served by an eternal marriage if not to procreate and raise spirit children?
If you are led by modern day prophets, why is your understanding of this doctrine more cloudy today that it was 40 years ago?
I think that many opinions have been batted around and this would be a sign of a vibrant and questioning church. But I need to remind myself that it takes more than one person's opinion to make it doctrine. I also think that the point that children are sealed to the parents may be against the idea of having one's own planet. And to live with heavenly father would also be against it.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
I hadn't visited that place for a while, and I didn't know that he had been banned. But I am not altogether surprised. There has been a systematic effort to cull all the LDS out of that site for quite some time, and it was inevitable that his turn would come eventually. And I don't blame the "Catholics" for it either. There are a bunch of Mormon apostates in there who pretend to be Catholics, but who in reality have no more faith in Catholicism than in Mormonism; and they have banded together to undermine Mormon posters by repeatedly alerting the mods with bogus complaints, and have succeeded in turning forum administration against them. There have also been changes in administration and new moderators who have been sympathetic to the apostates' cause, and all of this has combined to turn the entire board against the Mormons. But things don't always stay the same. Some day the tables will be turned against them.
Parker dd nothing wrong except articulate lds thought very well. I think that the exmormons just found him threatening because his posts were good and well thought out. And you are right about the pretending to be catholics. Their behavior is very uncatholic. I have known no catholic with such hostility toward any faith. They are open minded and respectful, knowing well that no faith is above criticism from people who have hatred in their hearts.
Joseph Smith Quotes
... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them.
Words of Joseph Smith, p.204 (18 May 1843)
Life as I know it must be ending!!! I'm in agreement with zerinus. OH MY!
I went back to the old site just to check up on how things were going now that all the LDS are gone. Of course, the same old same old former "Mormons" were in full play. There really is some skank going on over there; all right in front of those beloved Admins.
A true Catholic and a true LDS have a great deal in common; they both follow Jesus Christ. What a blessing that is when they recognize each other as disciples.
Storm Rider
“When from Thy stern tutoring, I would quickly flee, turn me from my Tarshish to where is best for me. Help me in my Nineveh to serve with love and truth; not on a hillside posted, mid shade of gourd or booth. When my modest suffering seems so vexing, wrong, and sore, may I recall what freely flowed from each and every pore. Dear Lord of the Abba Cry, Help me in my duress to endure it well enough and to say, . . . 'Nevertheless.'” - Neal A. Maxwell
Parker dd nothing wrong except articulate lds thought very well.
Actually he wasn't all that good at "articulating LDS thought," which is why he lasted longer than anyone else. You couldn't have found a sweeter soul there than dianiad; and she got banned before anybody else did; because she was indeed good at "articulating LDS thought".
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I think that the exmormons just found him threatening because his posts were good and well thought out.
I like to call them Mormon apostates! There is actually one person who is behind it all. I won't say who she is, but she is the mastermind, and has managed to recruit a bunch of others to her side, who have combined forces against the Mormons. Now of course the entire admin is turned against the Mormons. If Parker gets banned, nobody else stands a chance.
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And you are right about the pretending to be catholics. Their behavior is very uncatholic. I have known no catholic with such hostility toward any faith. They are open minded and respectful, knowing well that no faith is above criticism from people who have hatred in their hearts.
Like I said, they are Mormon apostates. For them Catholicism is simply a suitable platform from which to launch attacks against Mormonism. That is the only use it has for them. Apostates are all the same, whether they are Mormon apostates or Catholic apostates. Have you seen how hateful and vitriolic Catholic apostates are against Catholicism? They usually become Evangelicals or something like that, and turn their guns on Catholicism, and become more hateful towards the Catholic Church than lifelong Evangelicals are. It is the same with Mormon apostates, or any other kind of apostates. I am guessing that one day these very same people will turn against the Catholic Church, and will be as hateful towards Catholicism as they have been towards Mormonism.
I'd also point to dead unbaptized babies going to limbo, which was a very well known and prominent theology
It was never official doctrine, more of a folklore. Vatican II clarified this as has on occasion happened among LDS, for example with the less valiant folklore.
edit: I see this has been addressed.
Edited by calmoriah, 04 April 2012 - 05:53 AM.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
I think that many opinions have been batted around and this would be a sign of a vibrant and questioning church. But I need to remind myself that it takes more than one person's opinion to make it doctrine. I also think that the point that children are sealed to the parents may be against the idea of having one's own planet. And to live with heavenly father would also be against it.
Good point. Can't say I understand the reasoning behind families are forever, or being sealed to parents. It most certainly doesn't jive with "continuation of the seeds forever".
zerinus, on 03 April 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:
Indeed, eternal marriage is an integral part of the doctrine of deification and exaltation. To be exalted, you have to be married for eternity by the proper priesthood authority, which can only be done in Mormon temples.
You forgot to say "I believe that...", or the "The LDS Church teaches that.."
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Furthermore, the most significant blessing to be enjoyed by those who obtain exaltation is indeed the "continuation of the seeds forever," which has been interpreted to mean and eternal posterity. These are all true and legitimate Mormon doctrines. But none of this translates into "becoming god of your own planet," or that they will have "celestial sex," and she becomes "pregnant with spirit kids". The first is Mormon doctrine; the second is not.
Lets see, mormons believe that (1)God has a human form, (2) that gender is eternal, (3) that He has a celestial wife or wives, (4) they reside in the celestial kingdom; and (5) that together they produce spirit children, but you don't believe they have sex.
Or is it more accurate to say that Mormons do believe they will have sex in the celestial Kindgom with their celestial wives, but because your leaders have not ever come out and said it, its not doctrine.
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I can't speak for him or anybody else; but what God has revealed and what He has not is clear.
As long as God continues to speak through fallible men, who seem incapable of discerning personal opinion and revelation, he is far from clear.
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blueadept, on 03 April 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:
