320 replies to this topic

[altersteve]

Franktalk, on 28 April 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

You will have to tell me more about this path to spirituality from the world.  I always thought that the existence of the universe alone was the starting point.  For we are without excuse not to see the power of God knowing that the universe did not create itself.  And from that point we seek the unseen God behind the physical world.  This is why we develop our spiritual self in order to transcend this physical plane and commune with God directly.  If you have a path to God based on physical evidence then let me know what that is.

I never said that there is a path to God based on physical evidence. What I meant to say was that, as Brigham Young taught, learning about science and the arts can bring one closer to the Spirit. So we were probably talking about two different things here. I apologize if that's the case.

[altersteve]

Eldwynn, on 29 April 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Either way, as long as you don't claim knowledge that you can't possibly have, then I have no issue with your beliefs as long as they don't extend past my door.

There is a way for one to have knowledge that God exists; I know it because I have received a spiritual witness of His existence and of His love for me and all His children. This is not evidence that I can share, however. You cannot claim that I "can't possibly have" this knowledge, because you have never received the same spiritual witness that I have.

[Franktalk]

altersteve, on 29 April 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

I never said that there is a path to God based on physical evidence. What I meant to say was that, as Brigham Young taught, learning about science and the arts can bring one closer to the Spirit. So we were probably talking about two different things here. I apologize if that's the case.

I do agree that when man truly understands the universe it will dovetail with all of scripture.  But for now we don't know much about the true nature of nature and we have incomplete knowledge of scripture as well.  I think that Brigham Young was not afraid of that path but I am not sure that he would agree with current theories that assume there is no God.  In his day the universities were mainly faith based and taught science as a way to honor God and His creation.  I don't see that today.  So we have to place his comments in historical perspective.  If indeed one has the mindset to learn about the creation as the creation of God as most people did until just recently we can achieve a feeling of the power and vastness of God's creation.  Its complexity is another wonder for us as well.  So in that sense I do agree that we may a spiritual moment if we wonder at the creation and to that power that designed it.  I assume way too often when I read posts so there is no need to apologize.  I am sure I overreached in my comments.

[altersteve]

We can liken Brigham's comments to ourselves by seeking to study science, history, and the arts with the intent to multiply our talents and glorify our Father. I like what you said about learning about the world as the creation of God rather than as simply "the world." That's the perspective I like to look at this from.

This is kind of what I'm talking about.

Edited by altersteve, 29 April 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[bcuzbcuz]

Evolution, or at least, micro-evolution, can be easily tested with a few simple ingredients. You need a weed-whacker, a few dandelions and a little patience. Of course, the last part, patience, is the most difficult commodity if you are a young earther.

Let the dandelions grow unhindered the first season until they start to bloom. Then, pull out your mechanical wonder from storage, attach your extension cord and cut the dandelions to the ground with your trusty weed whacker. (Don't go to extremes and dig below ground level. That's cheating.)

Wait until the dandelions again reappear in this first season. When the plant begins to bloom again, take out your trusty weed whacker and hack away until you have beat the plant into submission. If you should experience some level of pleasure in this wanton destruction of this bothersome weed know that you are working for a good cause.

Should the plant dare to re-appear a third time you know the drill. Show no mercy.

The following year you will see the fruits of your labour. Well, actually, the workings of your electrical whacker. The dandelions flowers will no longer extend long and heightened above the ground. Instead, the genes that govern the length of stem will select for survival and grow close to the ground.

Mission accomplished. In one short season you will have selected the flowering that is most rewarding for the plant, a short, close to the ground, dandelion bloom.

Of course, now you have a weed that is better suited to the conditions of your garden. The dandelion will continue to grow, each year, bloom and blossom and go to seed within half a season and spread across your lawn and fields. And you'll never be rid of this weed. But you will have proved a point!

[Franktalk]

bcuzbcuz, on 29 April 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

The following year you will see the fruits of your labour. Well, actually, the workings of your electrical whacker. The dandelions flowers will no longer extend long and heightened above the ground. Instead, the genes that govern the length of stem will select for survival and grow close to the ground.

Isn't God wonderful in designing into each creature and plant those things to adapt to the rest of the creation.  I want to thank you for pointing out yet another of God's wondrous things.

[blackstrap]

And if you let the yard go for a couple of seasons,guess what kind of dandelion returns.Nothing has evolved,just temporarily adjusted.This logic is similar to the logic behind the (now discredited) idea that giraffes have long necks because they were always stretching to get the topmost leaves.

Edited by blackstrap, 29 April 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[Mariner]

blackstrap, on 29 April 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

And if you let the yard go for a couple of seasons,guess what kind of dandelion returns.Nothing has evolved,just temporarily adjusted.This logic is similar to the logic behind the (now discredited) idea that giraffes have long necks because they were always stretching to get the topmost leaves.

Are you also going to claim that MDR TB -> XDR TB -> TDR TB are not really examples of evolution, but simply  "temporary adjustments"?

Perhaps Franktalk can explain to everyone how wondrous God's (very recent) design of these little killers really is.

[blackstrap]

Mariner,I was addressing the dandelion example not your texting .

[thesometimesaint]

Mariner:

We live in an imperfect world. We are to exercize our best efforts to make it better, but we often fail. That is not an excuse to stop trying.

[Franktalk]

Mariner, on 29 April 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Perhaps Franktalk can explain to everyone how wondrous God's (very recent) design of these little killers really is.

The entire creation is in decay.  Mutations are gathering in all species with long lives and few offspring.  What you describe is but one example of the decay of organic life.  We are designed to only last so long.

[bcuzbcuz]

blackstrap, on 29 April 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

And if you let the yard go for a couple of seasons,guess what kind of dandelion returns.Nothing has evolved,just temporarily adjusted.This logic is similar to the logic behind the (now discredited) idea that giraffes have long necks because they were always stretching to get the topmost leaves.

You're right. The dandelion growth could be curtailed with trained giraffes, although they do need to stretch, to get at plants on the ground.

Are you sure the dandelions that sprout up in your yard are not contamination from the neighbor's "untrained" dandelions?

[Mariner]

Franktalk, on 30 April 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

The entire creation is in decay.  Mutations are gathering in all species with long lives and few offspring.  What you describe is but one example of the decay of organic life.  We are designed to only last so long.

Did God design totally drug resistant TB bacteria, or not?

If he did not, then how is it that this particular species of bacteria came to live among humans?

If he did, then why? Was his intention in doing so really to simply shorten the lives of poor people (including women and children) in India.

It seems to me that you want it both ways. You talk about divine supernatural creation, and then describe the accumulation of mutations in long lived species- which is it? Do you consider bacteria long-lived?

If God did not create every living thing, as taught in the Bible, at what point did creation stop and evolution take over?

Why are your unfounded theories not accepted in the biological sciences?

Edited by Mariner, 30 April 2012 - 03:12 AM.

[Franktalk]

Mariner, on 30 April 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Did God design totally drug resistant TB bacteria, or not?

He created lions and sharks as well.  The world is a rough place.  You seem angry with a God who did not design a paradise with foam wrapped around each corner so we don't hurt our self.  Your ideas of what should have been done are very common.  You seem to judge God.  This world is a cesspool of evil and harmful things.  But there is also love and charity.  Step around the bad and try and live in the good.  It is a simple message but lost on many.

[thesometimesaint]

Mariner:

Did God design totally drug resistant TB bacteria, or not?

If he did not, then how is it that this particular species of bacteria came to live among humans?

If he did, then why? Was his intention in doing so really to simply shorten the lives of poor people (including women and children) in India.

It seems to me that you want it both ways. You talk about divine supernatural creation, and then describe the accumulation of mutations in long lived species- which is it? Do you consider bacteria long-lived?

If God did not create every living thing, as taught in the Bible, at what point did creation stop and evolution take over?

Why are your unfounded theories not accepted in the biological sciences?


1. Does it really matter? This world is an imperfect world, and we were never intended to live forever in this mortal existance on it.

2. If you live long enough something is going to kill you. and we were never intended to live forever in this mortal existance on it.

3. We are to do the best we can not only for ourselves but for the women and children everywhere including in India.

4. Creation hasn't stopped, nor has evolution.

5. From the simple expedient that science can not be used to explain the supernatural.

[altersteve]

Mariner, on 29 April 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Perhaps Franktalk can explain to everyone how wondrous God's (very recent) design of these little killers really is.

Dandelions are indeed wonderful. Yes, they're weeds, but who hasn't had the joy of blowing the seeds off of one as a child? That's one of the small things that God loves to see His children find happiness in.

[altersteve]

Franktalk, on 30 April 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

He created lions and sharks as well.  The world is a rough place.  You seem angry with a God who did not design a paradise with foam wrapped around each corner so we don't hurt our self.  Your ideas of what should have been done are very common.  You seem to judge God.  This world is a cesspool of evil and harmful things.  But there is also love and charity.  Step around the bad and try and live in the good.  It is a simple message but lost on many.

Many atheists and agnostics take the pessimistic position that the bad always outweighs the good in this world. They don't understand how to reconcile a perfect, loving God with the existence of evil in the world, and some atheists that I have met don't seem to know how to notice the small, simple things in life that can bring so much more happiness than any amount of evil that can be found elsewhere.

Fortunately, the gospel of Jesus Christ answers all those questions.

[Mariner]

Franktalk, altersteve, and thesometimesaint,

Each one of you has tried to answer objective and yes/no questions with squishy, wishy washy, subjective woo woo responses.



thesometimesaint,

What do you mean by "Creation has not stopped, nor has evolution"?


Can you provide a verifiable example of supernatural creation that has taken place on the Earth while evolution has been ongoing?




altersteve,

You claim that the "Gospel of Jesus Christ answers all those questions".

So what does the Gospel of Jesus Christ tell you about whether XDR TB was created by God or evolved naturally?

Is it the former or the latter?



Franktalk,

Why would you say that I seem angry with God, when you know perfectly well that I do not believe that there is a God and that, in fact, there is a vanishingly small probability that the Mormon God could even exist.

Rather than preach irrelevant Sunday School platitudes, why not just answer the questions?

Are you uncomfortable committing to a specific answer?


Come on guys, this is a science vs. religion / creation vs. evolution  thread. Why not take a stand?

[thesometimesaint]

Mariner:

How could I prove a supernatural cause of a natural event when it is my belief that God uses natural events to meet his goals?

Talk about conflating apples with bananas.

[Cobalt-70]

Franktalk, on 27 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

So the stuff we can't see and can't measure is not plasma.  Just how do you know it is not plasma? Or some other form of plasma?  And what if the plasma we see is charged and that charge is what is causing the effects blamed on dark energy and dark matter?  I mean if you can tell me I am wrong and you use something no one has ever seen or measured I think I can make any statement I want and it should have as much weight as your nonsense.  But if your group of guys who all think the same agree on something I guess it must be true.

We know it's not plasma because we know what plasma is, and how to detect it. It is not true that we can't "measure" the dark matter and dark energy. We can measure them through their gravitational effects.

Electrical charge cannot describe the effects we see with our telescopes. We know there is dark matter because it is massive, and it bends light around it. Electrical charge is not equivalent to mass, and cannot bend light like that. Besides, if the universe were not electrically neutral, it would be very obvious when we look through our telescopes. Plus, if our galaxy were charged, we would be able see such a charge by looking at the solar wind.