Thomas Jefferson And Sally Hemmings Baptized, Married By Mormon Church

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa:

She probably did love him, but that is beside the point. She had no legal right to refuse.

It was his sister-in-law. I think you are trying to frame it with our beliefs today. She was at his bedside when he died and she was not there to change the bedpan.

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

I'm not in favor of presentism. I think it is a dishonest means of debate. I'm not disputing that she may have loved him. I have no way of getting into her mind and finding out for sure.That slaves had no legal right even to their own bodies is a simple historical fact. She could not say NO whatever her own motivations.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa:

I'm not in favor of presentism. I think it is a dishonest means of debate. I'm not disputing that she may have loved him. I have no way of getting into her mind and finding out for sure.That slaves had no legal right even to their own bodies is a simple historical fact. She could not say NO whatever her own motivations.

Then you may have accidentally opened my eyes to the situation of plural marriage in the early church. What choice did some of them have?

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

I can't answer for "some". As polygamy was never the standard, but it was selective, we have no way of knowing what the vast majority of LDS women would have done. I would assume that they like our contemporares could have said no to any marriage proposal that they didn't want. Plus when you add in that under Brigham Young divorce was more readily available than even today. My feeling is that polygamy as practiced by those early Saints was more than likely wouldn't have survived into the twentieth century anyway.

[bluebell]

Then you may have accidentally opened my eyes to the situation of plural marriage in the early church. What choice did some of them have?

Are you saying that in the early church, women asked to practice polygamy had no legal right to decline?

[KevinG]

If it's all true then hopefully he did love her, but of course we have no way of knowing that.

Most of the slave women who gave birth to their owner's children did so because they were raped or otherwise has no way to resist. Even if Jefferson did love sally, we can't forget that she might not have loved him back (though again, hopefully they did have a loving relationship as much as possible, if he truly was the father of her children).

Wow. Oh wow... We need to get our history from places other than docudramas and the grievance industry.

Black descendants of Jefferson and Hemings are very proud of their heritage. There is absolutely no evidence of abuse in that relationship. Hemings was in France a a paid free-woman to accompany Jefferson's daughter when they had their first child. She chose to return to the US as a slave rather than stay in France as a free woman when pregnant with Jefferson's child. There is much more evidence that she was a concubine than a typical slave and while a terrible thing revolutionary period slavery was nothing like the more brutal antebellum slave period.

There is a plethora of evidence that Hemings was a concubine or unofficial wife of Jefferson's. In fact Hemings and her siblings were themselves the product of the concubinage of a black woman to an English sea captain.

This link to Monticello's website has a good biography on Hemings.

http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/sally-hemings

[KevinG]

How do we know that a Hemings and Jefferson descendant (or someone who believes they are like the Wooden line or other unproven lines who disappeared into the mist of history) isn't a Mormon and submitted the work properly according to their family tradition and heritage?

[noel00]

What is it about human beings, sex and race. Black women were considered more passionate. If a black man as much as whistled at a white woman , he was lynched. There was mention on the media recently about a black boy whose eyes were gouged out for whistling at a white girl. One notices that only in movies in recent years would you see a black man kiss a white woman. Notice in Bill Cosby's show none of his kids seem to have dated someone from another race. All this Jefferson thing goes back to interacial.

[bluebell]

Wow. Oh wow... We need to get our history from places other than docudramas and the grievance industry.

Black descendants of Jefferson and Hemings are very proud of their heritage. There is absolutely no evidence of abuse in that relationship. Hemings was in France a a paid free-woman to accompany Jefferson's daughter when they had their first child. She chose to return to the US as a slave rather than stay in France as a free woman when pregnant with Jefferson's child. There is much more evidence that she was a concubine than a typical slave and while a terrible thing revolutionary period slavery was nothing like the more brutal antebellum slave period.

There is a plethora of evidence that Hemings was a concubine or unofficial wife of Jefferson's. In fact Hemings and her siblings were themselves the product of the concubinage of a black woman to an English sea captain.

This link to Monticello's website has a good biography on Hemings.

http://www.monticell...y/sally-hemings

As i said previously Kevin, I'm only a few weeks away from getting a BA in history. I don't get my history from docudramas. All i'm saying is that we have to be careful not to assume things are facts when we just don't know. Sally isn't here to speak for herself, and i'm not comfortable "declaring the way it absolutely was for her.

[KevinG]

As i said previously Kevin, I'm only a few weeks away from getting a BA in history. I don't get my history from docudramas. All i'm saying is that we have to be careful not to assume things are facts when we just don't know. Sally isn't here to speak for herself, and i'm not comfortable "declaring the way it absolutely was for her.

I just took issue with the presumption of rape. A presumption on the opposite end of the spectrum from happily married and intimate.

[noel00]

There was an effort to make a movie about their relationship on CBS. However the uproar was such that they had to give up the idea.

[Calm]

She chose to return to the US as a slave rather than stay in France as a free woman when pregnant with Jefferson's child.

And how could she have lived and supported herself and a child in France as a free woman? By becoming a prostitute? Any life she could have had there would probably have been in much worse physical conditions than she had at Monticello. That does not mean she would have chosen that life if she had a realistic chance of living in comfort as a free woman.

[bluebell]

I just took issue with the presumption of rape. A presumption on the opposite end of the spectrum from happily married and intimate.

If there was a presumption of rape, it didn't come from me.

As i see it, there are only two options. It was either completely consensual (meaning sally would still have chosen jefferson had she been a free white woman capable of that choice), or it wasn't. Since we just don't know, we can't rule out rape, but neither can we say that rape was probably the cause of the relationship.

That's ALL i was presupposing.

[bluebell]

And how could she have lived and supported herself and a child in France as a free woman? By becoming a prostitute? Any life she could have had there would probably have been in much worse physical conditions than she had at Monticello. That does not mean she would have chosen that life if she had a realistic chance of living in comfort as a free woman.

Did she have children from Jefferson at this time that remained in the states while she was in France? I honestly don't remember but if she did, then that would seriously call into question her reasons for returning with Jefferson. Even without that though, you make a good point. She had to support herself and her child somehow and remaining in france with no money, no job, (did she even speak the language?), and never seeing her family again would be a very difficult choice.

Yes, she might have loved him (if they did have a relationship, i truly hope she did), but returning to the US with him doesn't prove that.

[KevinG]

And how could she have lived and supported herself and a child in France as a free woman? By becoming a prostitute? Any life she could have had there would probably have been in much worse physical conditions than she had at Monticello. That does not mean she would have chosen that life if she had a realistic chance of living in comfort as a free woman.

Her brother was training to be a Chef in Paris- she had resources but they both came back to the US.

[KevinG]

Did she have children from Jefferson at this time that remained in the states while she was in France? I honestly don't remember but if she did, then that would seriously call into question her reasons for returning with Jefferson. Even without that though, you make a good point. She had to support herself and her child somehow and remaining in france with no money, no job, (did she even speak the language?), and never seeing her family again would be a very difficult choice.

Yes, she might have loved him (if they did have a relationship, i truly hope she did), but returning to the US with him doesn't prove that.

Sally was taking French lessons while in Paris. Jefferson was paying her and her brother and her brothers tuition.

Please read the link from Monticello. There is just too much speculation that is wrong in this discussion.

[Calm]

Is there any indication that while slavery was outlawed in France, that blacks were able to have a comparable lifestyle to what Sally and her siblings had back in Monticello, even as slaves?

I think unless we have writings by the individuals themselves saying they loved this or that person, it is mindreading and pure speculation to make that claim.

Best to stick to describing actual treatment and actions and leave it at that, imo.

[KevinG]

And how could she have lived and supported herself and a child in France as a free woman? By becoming a prostitute? Any life she could have had there would probably have been in much worse physical conditions than she had at Monticello. That does not mean she would have chosen that life if she had a realistic chance of living in comfort as a free woman.

No commoner in 18th century France lived comfortably. It would likely have been tough. While France outlawed slavery the status of blacks was not a set thing in their society.

I agree the choice to be a "free" woman or return to Monticello to have a semblance of a stable life might have been tough. There is nothing in the history to suggest Sally Hemings life with Jefferson was under duress other than her status as a Slave. She was given her "time" by Jefferson's daughter which allowed her to stay in Virginia while "freeing" her would have required she left the state within a year of her freedom.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Are you saying that in the early church, women asked to practice polygamy had no legal right to decline?

I am pointing out based on age and Joseph being the Prophet they may have thought they had no other choice. I know differently.

[bluebell]

I think unless we have writings by the individuals themselves saying they loved this or that person, it is mindreading and pure speculation to make that claim.

Best to stick to describing actual treatment and actions and leave it at that, imo.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

No commoner in 18th century France lived comfortably. It would likely have been tough. While France outlawed slavery the status of blacks was not a set thing in their society.

I agree the choice to be a "free" woman or return to Monticello to have a semblance of a stable life might have been tough. There is nothing in the history to suggest Sally Hemings life with Jefferson was under duress other than her status as a Slave. She was given her "time" by Jefferson's daughter which allowed her to stay in Virginia while "freeing" her would have required she left the state within a year of her freedom.

In short he was protecting her.

[thesometimesaint]

KenvinG:

A simple question. Did Sally have the right to say NO?

The simple answer is NO.

Whatever her feelings for Thomas were she as a slave had no legal right to say NO. Whether that constitutes rape is another question. Would a boss who demands sex for an employee in exchange for keeping a job be guilty of rape? In the strict legal sense of the word probably not. The employee can refuse. They loose their job. But they still can refuse. Slaves have no such right.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

KenvinG:

A simple question. Did Sally have the right to say NO?

I believe she did, just because she was a "slave" does not mean Thomas and Sally did not fall in love like anyone else. I think you are seeing this too PC.

[KevinG]

KenvinG:

A simple question. Did Sally have the right to say NO?

Yes - as evidenced by the deal Jefferson offered Sally and her Brother when they debated staying in France as free people.

I'm so totally disgusted by the assumption that the relationship between Jefferson and Hemmings was based on rape or coerced sex. Before repreating that some evidence should be provided for that charge. Go for it - lots of history written on Jefferson and Monticello. You should be able to find some evidence to bolster this serious charge.

(What are they teaching in university history classes these days?!)

[bluebell]

(What are they teaching in university history classes these days?!)

That the evidence strongly suggests her children were jefferson's. That their is no proof of that. And that anything else (whether the relationship was consensual or not) is unclear and that the evidence supports both depending on how a historian wants to interpret it.