Was My Mormon Ancestor'S Tithing Used To Build City Creek Mall?

[LeSellers]

While I'll agree with you that the church did gain great wealth from land taken from Mexico and Native Americans....and I'll also grant you that that wealth could be part of the seed money that funded the City Creek Mall...I think,

You are entitled to think any silly thing you choose.

You may even discount facts as you please.

However, while you may also make any defamatory charge you like, you should be able to give more than your opinion as to why anyone else should take you seriously.

Lehi

[Mark Beesley]

However, when its spends that kind of money, on that kind of project, you can't reasonably expect the critics not to say something. That is just silly.

Why?

What is unreasonable about expecting my neighbor not to question how I spend my money?

Is it reasonable for the critic to question how the Church spends its money?

When did being a buttinski become reasonable?

[LeSellers]

While I'll agree with you that the church did gain great wealth from land taken from Mexico and Native Americans....

There were no "Mexicans" in Deseret in 1847—only Indians who were Mexicans because Spain said they were.

As to the Saints' taking land from the Indians, if we want to go down that road, there'd be a lot of displaced USmericans living somewhere else. And that ignores the fact that the Indians invaded, killed, exterminated, and pushed each other out of the "tribal lands" for centuries before the eeeeeevil white man landed at Jamestown and Plymouth Rock.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

We stole it fair and square and we ain't giving it back.

[Fly Fisherman]

Perhaps they should have built a hospital or prison. Either options seems much more lucrative than a shopping center. Life and freedom are trading for a nice premium these days in the good ol USA.

The Church already did that. The hospital donations anyway. In the 1970s, the Church owned numerous hospitals - 15 I believe. It donated the hospitals to the community on the condition that a not-for-profit organization would be formed to operate the hospitals. That organization is Intermountain Healthcare - my current employer.

[Senator]

I'm telling ya!

Throw us a frickin' bone, here....

(sorry - it's way too early for Mike Meyers but that just popped into my head when I read your post - LOL)

A mere one half of one percent of the amount spent on the CCM would be as manna from heaven for this little rule community.

[Craig Paxton]

You are entitled to think any silly thing you choose.

You may even discount facts as you please.

However, while you may also make any defamatory charge you like, you should be able to give more than your opinion as to why anyone else should take you seriously.

Lehi

And likewise...

You are entitled to think any silly thing you choose.

You may even discount facts as you please.

However, while you may also make any defamatory charge you like, you should be able to give more than your opinion as to why anyone else should take you seriously as well...

Cr@ig

[Jeff K.]

What I find most interesting is the double standard. Not one of those complaining pays, but they are busybody enough to complain to others who do pay their tithing and do so faithfully. Indeed, at anyone given moment one or all of us could simply stop paying our tithing. They remind me of the divorced people who see a good marriage. The marriage works and everyone is happy, but they begin nattering "why do you let so and so do that", and "how is it you let the other person get away with ...." In other words, they hate to see a happy marriage. It is their only, literally ONLY reason for complaining.

Where did the US obtain its cash? Well for one thing it sold land to pioneers and colonists. By providing land and support one could argue that the remuneration for the land and shelter allowed the church to begin development in many different areas. But this of course is irrelevant. In the end, the whiners do not understand that tithing is NOT OUR MONEY. It is a very very small return for the many blessings we have received.

[wenglund]

Just as the critics are not appeased, neither are the apologists. If it was found that the church did "park" money in the mall, they would say it helped the economy...oh wait, they already made that point. If it was found it wasn't, well, the critics would say it was indirect...oh wait, that's been said.

You all are extremists and fundimentalists.

So, you think it is "extremist and fundamentalist" to simply note that the City Creek project has employed thousands of people during a bad economy? Really?

If so, then I think it is clear who actually is being extreme.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Craig Paxton]

"Why is it so important for you to believe that no tithing funds were used in the mall?"

It's not that it's so important to me; I trust those in charge to use it wisely for purposes I would agree with. I don't need to see annual financial statements because once I have given the tithing to the church I know I have obeyed the commandment and what happens to it after that is up to God. I am OK with that. But the critics of the church like to complain about it and accuse the church of improperly using the sacred tithing money. I guess we should just ignore what they say.

Why is it important? In the grand scheme of things it’s not important at all...it's a mere footnote...but I also think it’s disingenuous for the church to claim that no tithing funds were ever used when such a statement escapes reason. As I’ve expressed…the church has a very limited list of income sources…Yet they were able to come up with 5 billion cash to fund the mall….note it is debt free…so where would an institution the size of the LDS Church come up with 5 Billion dollars cash? From its petty cash drawer? They certainly didn’t float a stock offer, and since it's debt free we know they didn't take out a mortgage. I didn’t see any cupcake or lemon aid stands popping up on SLC’s street corners. And since they didn’t print it whole cloth…it had to come from somewhere. Can you honestly say that its sole source was from land they acquired 150 years ago? Wouldn't there be public records of land sales showing that the church sold 5 Billion worth of SL real estate over the years? They don't exist. Is it a credible claim to suggest that the invested sale of ZCMI garnered $5 billion dollars? Really? 5 Billion dollars, really? Where’s the CFR on that claim? Ummmm…Nowhere.

Now I again want to express my support of the church funding the new Mall…I will enjoy using the mall…I believe it is a great addition to SLC…but why is it such a sin to suggest that the church merely come clean on the source of its funding?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[wenglund]

Then show me how much the mall cost versus how much the Church has spent on humanitarian aid over the past 25 years.

Evidently, the busy-bodies these days have become so presumptuous as to suppose they are now entitled to information that isn't any of their business. Is there any bounds to such arrogance and unwarranted meddling? I suppose once a person has unfettered themselves from personal integrity and propriety, the sky is the limit.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 23, 2012 by wenglund

[Jeff K.]

While I'll agree with you that the church did gain great wealth from land taken from Mexico and Native Americans....and I'll also grant you that that wealth could be part of the seed money that funded the City Creek Mall...I think, despite President Hinckley’s admonition to the contrary...that investment funds from tithing were also used....and since the church doesn’t make its financial records available I guess we’ll really never know. But I can't imagine that the church would go to the lengths to keep separate books within its general funds ledger…on original source income from land acquired 150 years ago and its subsequent distributions there from…at least they didn’t keep those records separated the last time they disclosed their financial records

And yet, you have no standing to complain. Whether the investment comes from one source, many sources, investments or donations is irrelevant to all but those who participate in those investments. That being those who give in faith and those who spend in faith and the increase that comes between those two decisions. How the contract exists between them is not of your concern. No one need give money if they have no trust. And the only people complaining, have an agenda that does not coincide with a desire for truth. They are insincere, we know this given the history of their posts. Their goal is not to find the truth, but to undermine the church, and any argument no matter how insincere or hypocritical is acceptable to them.

[LeSellers]

You may even discount facts as you please.

Which facts did I discount?

Lehi

[BCSpace]

I am more concerned that I can pull up at least half a dozen scriptures from The Book of Mormon that seem to condemn the mall. Scriptures like Mormon 8:37.

That fact that the Mall, successful or not, seeks to provide jobs and economic activity shows that the Church is not in violation of this (or any other) verse. Since official LDS doctrine itself is anti-communal (D&C Institute manual Enrichment Section L for example), this kind of economic activity is Divinely approved. If you're poor, put your shoulder to the wheel, start networking, training, and educating and apply for a job or start a business.

Edited March 23, 2012 by BCSpace

[wenglund]

However, when its spends that kind of money, on that kind of project, you can't reasonably expect the critics not to say something. That is just silly.

Jaybear is right. Expecting the proverbial busy-bodies to not belly-ache even in the face of so much good, is just silly. Please remember the fable of the scorpian and the frog.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

[delete dup]

Edited March 23, 2012 by wenglund

[thesometimesaint]

Craig Paxton:

Irrelevent. The first humanoids to pick up a stick were using something that didn't belong to them.

The Church for over the last 100 years has kept discrete books on its nonprofit enterprizes, and its for profit businesses. Various governmental offices have had no problem with how the Church spends its money. It is past time to move on.

Edited March 23, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Craig Paxton]

And yet, you have no standing to complain. Whether the investment comes from one source, many sources, investments or donations is irrelevant to all but those who participate in those investments. That being those who give in faith and those who spend in faith and the increase that comes between those two decisions. How the contract exists between them is not of your concern. No one need give money if they have no trust. And the only people complaining, have an agenda that does not coincide with a desire for truth. They are insincere, we know this given the history of their posts. Their goal is not to find the truth, but to undermine the church, and any argument no matter how insincere or hypocritical is acceptable to them.

Jeff,

Just a couple of points...prior to my exit from Mormonims...I was a full tithe paying, temple recommend holding, active member of the church. I would like to think that some of those funds tht are being used to fund the Mall actually came from me.

Why is it such a big deal for you or any other believer to just accept that tithing funds were used to fund the mall...Why does it matter if tithing funds were used...I'm certainly glad that the church wants to improve the core city by investing 5 billion dollars of their money into the downtown area...certainly no private funds were willing to do so...I say good for them for making SLC an even better place to live (although I do wish it were open on Sundays).

I hate that believers get so defensive at the very suggestion that tithing funds were used...or even that the investment income from tithing funds were used...good greif....chill out

Edited March 23, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[thesometimesaint]

Craig Paxton:

Your status as a former member, or even a current member is irrelevent. The Church officers have publically stated that no tithing funds were used in the purchase of the mall. You are calling those Church officers liars. Provide proof of your claim or retract it.

[Craig Paxton]

Which facts did I discount?

Lehi

My mistake Lehi....every one of your posts is beyond reproach and certainly devoid of the slightest exaggeration. They always represent the very best in research, scholarship and erudition. Please excuse me for even suggesting otherwise. My sincerest apology.

Cr@ig

Oh and again my most sincere thanks for always being there to spell check my quickly type and posted contributions to this forum. Many thanks.

[wenglund]

Man, It would be nice if the church invested in my community like that!

Exodus 20:17 and Deut. 5:21.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Craig Paxton]

Craig Paxton:

Your status as a former member, or even a current member is irrelevent. The Church officers have publically stated that no tithing funds were used in the purchase of the mall. You are calling those Church officers liars. Provide proof of your claim or retract it.

Please take a deep breath.......I'm merely questioning their claim that no tithing funds were used...the claim excapes reason....I have never called them liars...merely questioning the claim...Hmmmm...Chiasmus.

[LeSellers]

My mistake Lehi....every one of your posts is beyond reproach and certainly devoid of the slightest exaggeration. They always represent the very best in research, scholarship and erudition. Please excuse me for even suggesting otherwise. My sincerest apology.

Accepted in the same spirit offered.

Oh and again my most sincere thanks for always being there to spell check my quickly type and posted contributions to this forum. Many thanks.

You are most welcome.

Lehi

[wenglund]

I would like to think that some of those funds that are being used to fund the Mall actually came from me.

Since it is important to you, I see no harm in you supposing this. Feel free to consider this as permission for that harmless supposition.

I hate that believers get so defensive at the very suggestion that tithing funds were used...or even that the investment income from tithing funds were used...good greif....chill out.

Wow...look at who really is being defensive. Please, take your own advise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

Craig:

I breathe quite easily thank you.