Single Men, Marriage And Pre-Adult Limbo

[LDSToronto]

I'm a man, and I deferred completing my PhD for nearly two years whilst helping one of my former Young Men navigate his way through the legal system (all the way to the territorial supreme court) in order to avoid conviction on a false charge. (When he first came to me for help, it was his intention merely to plead guilty because he was convinced no one would believe his side of things due to his skin colour, and he was probably right. Thankfully, in the end we succeeded in getting the case dropped last year, and now he doesn't have to spend the next 15 years in gaol!)

No one knows this outside my bishop, but, if people did know, I'm confident a certain percentage of them would think I'm crazy. I'm OK with that, but I don't want to create a family with one of those people.

You made a choice to help someone - that's awesome, and I'm sure that young man will thank you for the rest of his life.

H.

[Jeff K.]

Toronto, we know you to be anti Mormon, so when you ask questions you aren't looking for illumination so much as opportunity to complain about how horribly backward we Mormons are in regards to women. Such cheap wares don't peddle well here.

Your problem is that you presume what isn't there. No, I don't expect others to make the sacrifices I have made, or my family, or the sacrifices Hamba has made (which show an excellent depth of character on his part). But most of us recognize the trolling attitude when we see it. You are so wrapped up in your own bitterness that you seem to misread on a regular basis.

There are many things that suffer and choices made for both the career and parenthood. To say one can do either with sacrificing something elsewhere is not always the case. For example, I traveled extensively while my wife remained at home. This necessitated me being away from the family, when we moved for company business to a foriegn land, the same occurred. Sacrifices were made. It is naive to believe opportunity costs, familial or otherwise do not occur. The question is whether or not those sacrifices are for the best. That is where the Lord's help comes into play, helping us as a family decide what is best.

I realize some reject the idea that such a thing exists. It is unfortunate, even as most here will bear witness that it does, while those who reject it do so because they cannot pull on that part of the Lord's gifts. Such is the dilemma for such posters.

In effect, whether people stay at home or not, we rely or try to rely on the spirit to dictate our choices as a family. Your presumptions that we "only" seek education for women, with the implication that somehow by cultural tradition women are limited from exercising their agency to develop their talents reflects upon the trolling attitude. Relative to you (and your recent actions of dishonesty) I would say our lives are well adjusted, happy and with the normal ups and downs of marriage, but with a goal and understanding that goes beyond this life. You may or may not have known or believed in such things, if at one time you were a Latter-day Saint. But as I sit in my office at home, listening to the tunes of love being plunked on the piano downstairs, coming from my wife as our youngest comes from a fireside with her older brother, I can only marvel at how happy I am by the choices we made following the spirit. If you could touch upon that power you would indeed know differently and stop worrying about other people's choices.

[LDSToronto]

Toronto, we know you to be anti Mormon, so when you ask questions you aren't looking for illumination so much as opportunity to complain about how horribly backward we Mormons are in regards to women. Such cheap wares don't peddle well here.

I'm not an anti-Mormon, so you don't know me to be one. And you don't know why I am asking questions. You are assuming. And why the hate, Jeff? I'm sure you can muster up something better in your heart? If we were face-to-face, I'm sure you wouldn't speak to me this way, would you?

You are so wrapped up in your own bitterness that you seem to misread on a regular basis.

I am? Where do you find evidence of my bitterness?

In effect, whether people stay at home or not, we rely or try to rely on the spirit to dictate our choices as a family. Your presumptions that we "only" seek education for women, with the implication that somehow by cultural tradition women are limited from exercising their agency to develop their talents reflects upon the trolling attitude. Relative to you (and your recent actions of dishonesty) I would say our lives are well adjusted, happy and with the normal ups and downs of marriage, but with a goal and understanding that goes beyond this life. You may or may not have known or believed in such things, if at one time you were a Latter-day Saint. But as I sit in my office at home, listening to the tunes of love being plunked on the piano downstairs, coming from my wife as our youngest comes from a fireside with her older brother, I can only marvel at how happy I am by the choices we made following the spirit. If you could touch upon that power you would indeed know differently and stop worrying about other people's choices.

I'm really happy for you, Jeff, that you find joy in your family. I know that feeling just as well as you do. It's wonderful. But, concerning 'worrying about other people's choices', take a look at the OP for this thread, some 9 pages back. I didn't start the thread, which ultimately took turns concerning itself with the choices single men and single women make. In fact, I think I was the one who said that we should all just mind our business. Good LDS posters also mentioned women make choices, like education and career, that prevent them from making a good (LDS good) choice to date and marry.

So...

H.

[bluebell]

In Canada you can start mat leave whenever you want.

But I think this misses the point. The point I'm making is that women can have career and family if they want. And neither has to suffer.

H.

As Deborah has stated, that is an opinion that is pretty relative in scope. Growing up with a mother who worked but still put her family first, for example, i am of the opinion that children don't escape unscathed from the experience, even if the scars are minimal or seem to be a small price to pay for the advantages gained. Other kids who went home to an empty house after school might completely disagree.

So, i don't think any of us have missed your point. We are simply disagreeing with it on certain levels for specific reasons.

Edited March 19, 2012 by bluebell

[Calm]

Well, why don't we ask men to delay their career or education to raise the children while mom continues her education or advances her career?

H.

You are changing the argument, you said it was the end of their hopes and dreams, not the delay of them. That was what

i challenged. I completely agree that women are asked to typically make a much greater sacrifice in education and career than men. I also know a whole lot of men who have not progressed as far they desired in their education or career because of the sacrifices they've made for their family, but they were happy to do it.

[Jeff K.]

Toronto

Would an anti Mormon use false ID to attempt to undermine honest LDS in doing geneological research? Would someone bitter use the photo you are using as an avatar? Neutral individuals do not. Do you expect us to overlook your past experience and attacks on the church when you post? Surely even you have to agree what you have done is indeed wrong. Would you like us to link the thread for context.

I would speak as honestly to you in person as I do now. Hence my belief you are trolling.

[Duncan]

my heart and nerves were in limbo when I was listening to music at 1130ish pm while writing some stuff down and my 9yr son tapped me on the shoulder and said he couldn't sleep. Now, that I have very nearly recovered I will say! (deep breaths) that sometimes you feel like a huge loser for being divorce and having a child, like how do you explain that to a potential life companion? My son is plus in my life, near death experience notwithstanding!

[LDSToronto]

Toronto

Would an anti Mormon use false ID to attempt to undermine honest LDS in doing geneological research? Would someone bitter use the photo you are using as an avatar? Neutral individuals do not. Do you expect us to overlook your past experience and attacks on the church when you post? Surely even you have to agree what you have done is indeed wrong. Would you like us to link the thread for context.

I would speak as honestly to you in person as I do now. Hence my belief you are trolling.

I don't understand this hatred that a few members of this board have for Harvey Milk. Mind you, I think if I had an avatar of a puppy or of Joseph Smith I'd still be castigated for my choice. But, if you have a better idea for an avatar for me, perhaps you can offer up a suggestion.

As for the research I did on FamilySearch, look, if it's eating you up so badly that you need to bring it up over and over again, I really don't know what to do for you other than ask you to move past it or stop responding to my posts.

H.

[frankenstein]

Jeff for your own dignity, would please for sake of board and your intelligence stop with your childish "antimormon" routine. You do not know Toronto, you are not jesus. It gets very tiresome to see you label all who you do not agree with as an antimormon.

So what if someone is inactive? Does that give you right to go on character assinations against those you personally deem anti Mormon? It's really getting old and boring.

You frequently do not honor CFRs, does that make you an antimormon becuase surely a Mormon is always honest and honorable? Your failure to honor CFR does not make you antimormon, but it does show that you, like everyone else, are on the same level in different ways.

What do you think is accomplished by pushing people further from the church with your holy than thou attitude?

[Jeff K.]

Inactive is not anti Mormon. Anti Mormon is someone who actively seeks to hurt or damage the church often using half truths, deceit and other nefarious actions. It is funny that you mention "dignity" when I am not the one who used deceptive methods to undermine the church, you, of course are free to defend those methods if you wish. I simply remind you what has been done.

I doubt I could push Toronto any further from the church given where he is and what he has done, do you? So spare me the false sentiments.

[Jeff K.]

my heart and nerves were in limbo when I was listening to music at 1130ish pm while writing some stuff down and my 9yr son tapped me on the shoulder and said he couldn't sleep. Now, that I have very nearly recovered I will say! (deep breaths) that sometimes you feel like a huge loser for being divorce and having a child, like how do you explain that to a potential life companion? My son is plus in my life, near death experience notwithstanding!

A good friend and his wife, also a friend, divorced. Both did not realize the dilemma you have raised, ie how do you explain to someone that something so important in our lives ended wrongly. I think that is where the ward comes in, and sometimes the overwhelming matchmaking going on. Both have reconciled their feelings and remarried other people. But it took several years for them to get to that point. I am sorry for the difficulty of your journey.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I'm sure that young man will thank you for the rest of his life.

That hasn't been the case so far, but that isn't the point, is it?